After playing a few games with new players yesterday I've noticed that there seems to be a common mistake made during the Setup Phase of the game. In the two games I was the Red Player my opponents, both offered me their decks of Objective, Deployment, and Condition cards and asked me to remove one. I refused to do so and then they themselves removed a card from the "hand" and then laid the other three out. This is incorrect.

Step 5 of Setup on page 6 of the RRG states:

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Reveal Battle Cards: Shuffle the objective, deployment, and condition decks separately. Then, draw and reveal three cards from each deck, laying out each category in a horizontal row oriented right side up according to the blue player’s side of the battlefield.

Notice that is says to shuffle the decks and then draw and reveal three cards from each deck.

Furthermore, Step 3 of Game Setup on pg. 7 of the Tournament Regulations states:

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Players shuffle the blue player’s objective, deployment, and condition decks separately, then draw and reveal three cards from each deck, laying out each category in a horizontal row oriented right side up according to the blue player’s side of the battlefield.

The first thing to notice here is the word Players at the beginning of the rule, notice the plural form of the word. The second thing to notice is that this also says to shuffle the decks and then draw and reveal three cards from each deck.

This is a arguably minor distinction but an important one as it eliminates the possibility of the Blue Player fixing their decks in such a way that they can determine which Objectives, Deployments, and Conditions show up in which positions of the Battle Card array.

You're acting like everyone else has had this issue. Sounds like it's just an issue where you play.

And seeing you use the blue players deck, and that he brings only four of each card type, blue can still somewhat swing the cards in his favor by eliminating cards that don't favor him.

7 minutes ago, AintNoPoser said:

You're acting like everyone else has had this issue. Sounds like it's just an issue where you play.

It's actually not an issue where I play regularly. This came up at an event in another city.

5 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

And seeing you use the blue players deck, and that he brings only four of each card type, blue can still somewhat swing the cards in his favor by eliminating cards that don't favor him.

This is true, but not the point of my post.

For example, let's say someone takes a large bid with the intent of choosing to be Blue Player in all of their games. They then arrange their Objective cards so that they know which order they are in from left to right. They offer their objective deck to the Red Player who declines to remove a card so the Blue Player removes the one least advantageous to them (because they know which order the cards are in) and then lay out the three remaining cards with Key Positions in the third spot. They use their two choices to eliminate the objectives before Key Positions to ensure they are able to have an advantage in objective placement.

While I agree this may be an extreme example it is not beyond reason.

20 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

It's actually not an issue where I play regularly. This came up at an event in another city.

This is true, but not the point of my post.

For example, let's say someone takes a large bid with the intent of choosing to be Blue Player in all of their games. They then arrange their Objective cards so that they know which order they are in from left to right. They offer their objective deck to the Red Player who declines to remove a card so the Blue Player removes the one least advantageous to them (because they know which order the cards are in) and then lay out the three remaining cards with Key Positions in the third spot. They use their two choices to eliminate the objectives before Key Positions to ensure they are able to have an advantage in objective placement.

While I agree this may be an extreme example it is not beyond reason.

The rules specifically state you shuffle the deck and deal randomly..... I've never seen it done different, and if so, whoever did it is cheating, lol.

Just now, Darth Lupine said:

The rules specifically state you shuffle the deck and deal randomly..... I've never seen it done different, and if so, whoever did it is cheating, lol.

That is my entire point and I have seen it done differently so wanted to point it out.

17 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

The rules specifically state you shuffle the deck and deal randomly..... I've never seen it done different, and if so, whoever did it is cheating, lol.

It's possible that they are just misunderstanding and acting that way in good faith. However those people give cover to the once who are actively trying to game the system.

Really I think people just need to understand the order of operations better when it comes to Turn 0.

For instance, I've had people try to tell me their bid or their faction before we set up the table. I don't want that info because it is going to influence how terrain goes out.

Woah, that sounds... crazy. It never occurred to me anyone would do that since the rule is so clear. Certainly never seen it happen. If they're knowingly removing a specific card from each deck and then placing the remainder in a specific order, that is definitely breaking the rules (whether it's intentional or not).

Our set-up process goes like this: shuffle each deck; offer the decks facedown to the other player to discard one card from each (mostly an etiquette thing to show there is no rigging going on, much like having your opponent cut/shuffle your deck in Netrunner or something); and then lay out the remainder of the deck from top-to-bottom to left-to-right.

@nashjaee The set-up process you describe is close to what I'm talking about though. The shuffling part is correct but the rest is not technically accurate. The rules as written specifically state "draw and reveal three cards from each deck", not "discard one card and reveal the remaining cards".

12 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

@nashjaee The set-up process you describe is close to what I'm talking about though. The shuffling part is correct but the rest is not technically accurate. The rules as written specifically state "draw and reveal three cards from each deck", not "discard one card and reveal the remaining cards".

Right. It’s technically incorrect, but functionally the same. I suppose asking the opponent shuffle the deck rather than discard one card achieves the same thing (talking about etiquette, I mean). It’s also not something I care to split hairs over too much.

2 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

@nashjaee The set-up process you describe is close to what I'm talking about though. The shuffling part is correct but the rest is not technically accurate. The rules as written specifically state "draw and reveal three cards from each deck", not "discard one card and reveal the remaining cards".

I think the important point is that 1/4 cards doesn't come out.

I'm not terribly concerned if the hole card is taken out first or last. However I do agree that it is important to offer the opponent a chance to shuffle the cards. If you were going to remove the hole card first I might even fan them for the opponent, and let them pick randomly. that would avoid a stacked deck as well.

Additionally, if we really wanted to get fancy we could make an app that lets you choose 4 cards for each category and randomized them