Nerf acryllic templates. The people who fly them win more often against me than the ones who don't, and the fault lies not in my flying or the expertise of my opponents, but in the brokenness of what I face. If acryllic templates don't cost 5 pt of your squad, then this game will become broke. All it encourages is more people going to events to get them, and since FFG promised that cross-factional purchases are done, why do we have the same effect in the OP prize department?

Templates OP: FFG Plz nerf

There is a lot of call for points cost increases - I seriously doubt it is going to happen!!!

Why?

If you owned the company wouldn't it be better to decrease costs allowing more ships to fit in a list.

Fundamentally any balancing of this nature (reduction in over costed ships and upgrades) could translate to power creep - albeit in a reverse kind of way. Fortunately there is the opportunity (albeit infrequently) to adjust points again if desired/needed.

So, I think going forward fleets may be slightly larger or more beefy than their 1.0 counterparts (as ageneral rule points costs now are 10% cheaper for many ships and upgrades).

Yes the game has slightly more moving parts but not too many and the rules are somewhat streamlined.

I figure the extra points available are presently the equivalent of a budget generic small ship cheaper than 1.0.

Personally I don't see this as a problem, but I agree with SOTL and others when they say some costs are drastically wrong - I just think the bottom needs to come up not the top coming down.

And to the OP - I think the G1A is well costed including 4LOM.

2 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Trick Shot for any ship capable of a secondary arc the should be 3 points

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

That sounds reasonable. Intentionally setting up a Trick Shot through your front arc has a risk involved, as you could end up flying through the obstacle or else at least limiting your maneuver next turn. For a mobile or rear arc, there's much less risk, so a cost increase makes sense.

I think there's an interesting comparison between Trick Shot and Predator. Adding a die is superior to rerolling a die in pretty much every situation. It's not always a large difference, but it usually is.

Predator is 2 points, and really rather hard to line up. Harder than Trick Shot? I think for most ships, yes. So Trick Shot is stronger than Predator, cheaper than Predator, and easier than Predator. It has to cost at least 3 points. Heck, I'd probably make it cost 3 points period.

Now, perhaps someone would say that Predator is too expensive, and could use a reduction. Personally, I disagree. I think Predator ought to be the standard, the yard stick, the perfect kilogram (which they just replaced, but still....). If Juke and Lone Wolf and Outmaneuver are out-of-alignment with the power level set by Predator, perhaps they ought to go up in value.

Per the Mynocks last week, there's some logic to the thought that most Rebel ships don't need cost reductions. Most Scum/Imperial ones need increases. If the X-Wing represents a standard, if we accept that 41 points for a generic X-Wing is what it ought to be, then other ships get measured against it. The B-Wing and X-Wing probably should be the same price. Whisper is almost surely worth more than a 4-point premium over Thane Kyrell. Keep Thane and X-Wings as the gold-standard, and increase other stuff in proportion.

Something similar could be done with crew. Kanan Jarrus is the same 14 points as Darth Vader, and 2 points more than Seventh Sister. So do you decrease Kanan to Sev's price, or increase Sev to be equal and Vader to more expensive than Kanan? Buffs and nerfs are two ways to get to the same approximate destination of balance. I think it makes more sense to get there by nerfs, since that helps keep the power level lower, the power creep lower, so that things are in a better overall state than the end of 1e, where buff buff buff got ridiculous by the end.

Buffs or nerfs? It's an easier question with X-Wings, since you can't really buff them. Going to 40 points on an X-Wing crosses a pretty fundamental break-point. A 2 point hike on all Talented Phantoms locks out 4x Juke Sigmas, but almost surely doesn't cause long-run problems like 5x Blue Squadron Escorts.

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I'm glad to hear this. It's basically been my experience with 4 Sabers + Gideon Hask. I don't have as many reps as it sounds like you do, but "5 attacks that matter" definitely seems like it cares less about the powerhouses than a lot of lists do.

I would dread your list.

Regarding the Marauder title...

I love it on the generic bounty hunter right now and would hate to see it go up in cost.

What if it costed more the higher your init maybe? So on boba it might cost 5 or 6.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I think there's an interesting comparison between Trick Shot and Predator. Adding a die is superior to rerolling a die in pretty much every situation. It's not always a large difference, but it usually is.

Predator is 2 points, and really rather hard to line up. Harder than Trick Shot? I think for most ships, yes. So Trick Shot is stronger than Predator, cheaper than Predator, and easier than Predator. It has to cost at least 3 points. Heck, I'd probably make it cost 3 points period.

Now, perhaps someone would say that Predator is too expensive, and could use a reduction. Personally, I disagree. I think Predator ought to be the standard, the yard stick, the perfect kilogram (which they just replaced, but still....). If Juke and Lone Wolf and Outmaneuver are out-of-alignment with the power level set by Predator, perhaps they ought to go up in value.

Per the Mynocks last week, there's some logic to the thought that most Rebel ships don't need cost reductions. Most Scum/Imperial ones need increases. If the X-Wing represents a standard, if we accept that 41 points for a generic X-Wing is what it ought to be, then other ships get measured against it. The B-Wing and X-Wing probably should be the same price. Whisper is almost surely worth more than a 4-point premium over Thane Kyrell. Keep Thane and X-Wings as the gold-standard, and increase other stuff in proportion.

Something similar could be done with crew. Kanan Jarrus is the same 14 points as Darth Vader, and 2 points more than Seventh Sister. So do you decrease Kanan to Sev's price, or increase Sev to be equal and Vader to more expensive than Kanan? Buffs and nerfs are two ways to get to the same approximate destination of balance. I think it makes more sense to get there by nerfs, since that helps keep the power level lower, the power creep lower, so that things are in a better overall state than the end of 1e, where buff buff buff got ridiculous by the end.

Buffs or nerfs? It's an easier question with X-Wings, since you can't really buff them. Going to 40 points on an X-Wing crosses a pretty fundamental break-point. A 2 point hike on all Talented Phantoms locks out 4x Juke Sigmas, but almost surely doesn't cause long-run problems like 5x Blue Squadron Escorts.

Is the x-wing the standard though? I think it should still be the tie fighter. Some of those assumptions hold up but others don't

I fly Talonbane and Quinn Jast recently and I find this particular Scyk properly priced, while Khirax is slightly overcosted (like 1-2 points).

I love love love my Squints. They seem spot on. Fel and Sabers are so much fun to fly, but they actually require good flying or you're in serious trouble. I think their cost is perfect. I've only had one game where things weren't even close but that was due to poor flying on my opponent's part. So, while I know Fel was already mentioned, I have to add Sabers, Phennir and even Alphas (though I haven't flown them - I like my In4 Sabers too much).

On a side note, I'd love to see how 5 Sabers stack up to 5 Marauders.

I might be on my own with this, but I think the U-wings are in a really good spot right now. Rebels in general aren't, but once some tweaks are made to the rest of the faction, I think U-wings will shine like the Lambda's do for imps.

Imperials have some seriously nice crew right now, which makes the shuttles all the more worth while, but Cassian, Magva, Benthic and even Saw have some great abilities and function well even just as coord-boats. Crew like Kanan, Leia and Jyn can be worth while and sit best on the U-wing in my opinion. It's one of the ships (this and the X-wing really) in the rebel faction that I think is right where it needs to be.

2 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

Is the x-wing the standard though? I think it should still be the tie fighter. Some of those assumptions hold up but others don't

I think they're both kind of standards. You'll need at least a few benchmarks for different sorts of ships.

But it's less about how accurate all the comparisons are right now, but what the design philosophy ought to be. I guess at the moment, I'd rather scale everything to the power level of X-Wings and TIE Fighters, than scale the X-Wings and TIE Fighters to the power level of... whatever the top meta ships happen to be.

I feel the named Rebel Y-wing pilots across the board could use a nice points decrease, except Evaan. Especially since they seem to die incredibly fast, I would like to be able to pay around 50 points for a decent I-4 Y-wing (Astro + choice of either turret, bomb, or torp).

I certainly don’t want to see rebels version of barrage bombers with Y-wings proton torps though, which is why The generics shouldn’t be touched.

9 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

I feel the named Rebel Y-wing pilots across the board could use a nice points decrease, except Evaan. Especially since they seem to die incredibly fast, I would like to be able to pay around 50 points for a decent I-4 Y-wing (Astro + choice of either turret, bomb, or torp).

I certainly don’t want to see rebels version of barrage bombers with Y-wings proton torps though, which is why The generics shouldn’t be touched.

Isn't that what a Horton Salm costs, give or take? A Torpedo and R3 Astromech is 50 exactly on him, or Trick Shot, Ion Cannon Turret, and Proton Bomb, or so forth. ICT and Veteran Turret Gunner seems like a cool combo for 52; if someone else is close to the enemy, he'll double-tap with rerolls.

I dont think any ship needs a price hike. Im more interested in what gets a price reduction. Keeping the current crop of "good" ships and adding new options is much more interesting that the whack-a-mole style of "balancing" where you just smack whatever is on top and see what pops up in its place. Reducing the cost of other ships could have the natural effect of making whatevers good now less good in the future without having to mess around points.

Upgrades on the hand.... quite a few deserve a bumb. Han gunner, sloan, .ect.

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Isn't that what a Horton Salm costs, give or take? A Torpedo and R3 Astromech is 50 exactly on him, or Trick Shot, Ion Cannon Turret, and Proton Bomb, or so forth. ICT and Veteran Turret Gunner seems like a cool combo for 52; if someone else is close to the enemy, he'll double-tap with rerolls.

You are right, I’m just thinking of Norra, whose ability justifies her cost, and Dutch, for the life of me can’t figure out why he is 1 point less than Norra.

Well the first ship that comes to mind is Wedge. He is good value at 52pt but he still dies quickly if you’re not careful. I don’t see his cost changing anytime soon, if at all.

I'm no expert on this kind of thing, but based on what I've picked up on from everyone else, it seems like a thorough overview of the points would be appreciated. There doesn't seem to be anything major, but doing a lot of small tweaks after seeing how Second Edition has settled seems like a good idea, and one of the last times that a lot of changes like that wouldn't feel too jarring.

I expect there won't be much though, so I don't expect point adjustments for anything I've been playing. The Boba combo sounds like a likely target of adjustment. The auto-takes on certain Phantoms sound like a strong likelihood as well, but I think they need to be careful with that.

Speaking of Phantoms, I'm honestly a fan of the Crew slot being changed myself. Not necessarily for any outstanding balance problem, but because the extra slot was explicitly a Gunner in its source material (not that this sort of thing is unusual for X-Wing, especially for balance reasons). There really isn't a good option for it right now, and maybe that's the reason they didn't make it a Gunner slot, but if we ever got some Gunners that worked for it, I wouldn't mind the slot being switched. I feel like it would make more sense for its role, too, depending on how said Gunner turned out.

I've actually been loving the named B-Wing pilots for Rebels. Haven't flown a lot of Rebels yet, but the B's for me have felt pretty close to spot-on. Haven't flown the "elite" generics yet, but have had fun with both named and the bottom generic. Also loving Lt. Sai specifically, but Lambda in general. Dial is still terrible, but oh, that rear arc makes such a difference.

In general, I think most ships could get a pass. Bomber and Quadjumper both probably need to go up a bit. Other than that, it really feels like most things are pretty well-balanced, with only a few specific pilots/upgrade combos being the real worst offenders (Marauder/Han/Boba all together in a single ship, for example -- and I think Boba's the least of the problem there). Redline is another.

Personally, I don't see the Phantom as an issue. Feels like Interceptors could stand a tiny drop. Sure there's others that could use just a bit more too.

11 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

whats your build for the generic inq? I've been thinking about this ship but haven't put it on the table for 2.0 yet

Pretty simple.

TIE Advanced v1 - Inquisitor - 50
Inquisitor - (40)
Fire-Control System (3)
Proton Rockets (7)

Total: 50

Or

TIE Advanced v1 - Inquisitor - 46
Inquisitor - (40)
Fire-Control System (3)
Homing Missiles (3)

Total: 46

I have really liked the beside colonel jebdon to grab the early target lock for all the fire control re-rolls.

That one force token does absolute wonders on defense and offense. They do surprising damage even if they have to spend there focus on defense with FC+force to follow up, 2 dice are strong enough with good mods. With a jendon coordinate you can be sitting with focus+evade+force+(banked to from before)+did a repositioning action.

The Cartel Marauder Kihraxz is spot on in terms of pricing at 40 points. It allows for a durable five ship list with 3 attack dice apiece, but you can't put any upgrades in there. I've been having a lot of fun flying them, both as a pure five Cartel Marauder list, and as a three Cartel Marauders plus Ion Drea and an Ion Cartel Spacer. (That latter list getting me my first tournament win of 2nd Edition.)

4 hours ago, Jarval said:

The Cartel Marauder Kihraxz is spot on in terms of pricing at 40 points. It allows for a durable five ship list with 3 attack dice apiece, but you can't put any upgrades in there. I've been having a lot of fun flying them, both as a pure five Cartel Marauder list, and as a three Cartel Marauders plus Ion Drea and an Ion Cartel Spacer. (That latter list getting me my first tournament win of 2nd Edition.)

It does seem a little expensive compared to the Barrage Bomber though. The Kihraxz has a marginaly better dial and statline, with the Bomber getting more options and a better action bar. Their attacks are similar in power level, with the Bomber hitting slightly harder at longer ranges, but then again needs reloading occasionally, and requires a focus. The difference should probably be 3-4 points, not 6.

22 minutes ago, Okapi said:

It does seem a little expensive compared to the Barrage Bomber though. The Kihraxz has a marginaly better dial and statline, with the Bomber getting more options and a better action bar. Their attacks are similar in power level, with the Bomber hitting slightly harder at longer ranges, but then again needs reloading occasionally, and requires a focus. The difference should probably be 3-4 points, not 6.

Agreed, but I suspect the issue there is the Bomber (or some component of it) being too cheap, rather than the Kihraxz being too expensive. 🙂

Yeah, the bomber is going up about 4pts I think.