How does everyone handle range for combat?

Specifically, if you are going to use mini's how do you determine the range bands for movement and so forth?

When I use tokens, I use the rules on 266, "Range Bands on a Tactical Grid (Optional Rule)".

Tain't perfect, but it's reasonable, provided you don't flip-flop between the two methods of movement.

Ranges don't work very well if people spread up during combat. They really don't work at all.

I use the tactical grid, though I tweaked it a bit cause it works odd with techniques that give you multiple range bands movements.

6 hours ago, Shosur0 said:

Ranges don't work very well if people spread up during combat. They really don't work at all.

I use the tactical grid, though I tweaked it a bit cause it works odd with techniques that give you multiple range bands movements.

Care to share your tweaks?

edit: range bands work well in star wars because not many abilities mechanically work with them. its basically "melee or ranged". In L5R, every technique have some kind of precise range description like 1-3 or 0-1 or 2-3 etc. And then you have techniques that play with those like Iron Forest polearm thing etc. So going with very loose range bands it gets hard to play with the techniques and keep track of all that.

L5R probably works best with a tactical grid, most of the time. Even if just a very "empty" tactical grid like a GO board just so you keep track of distances without needing to draw every little details on the grid like you kind of have in D&D.

14 hours ago, Shosur0 said:

I use the tactical grid, though I tweaked it a bit cause it works odd with techniques that give you multiple range bands movements.

Not sure what you mean here. They explicitly simplify the way range bands work for movement on a tactical grid. You move up to three spaces for each range band you are instructed to move.

16 hours ago, IonicSquid said:

Not sure what you mean here. They explicitly simplify the way range bands work for movement on a tactical grid. You move up to three spaces for each range band you are instructed to move.

I mean I dislike universal movement rules i.e. "everyone moves the same“. Agile people should move faster than clumsier ppl. Also horses and big stuff like Trolls or Oni should also move faster. I know horses give you a bonus when you use a maneuver check but they should move more by default (or so my gaming group believes).

So I tied movement to water like in the previous edition and I gave stuff with bigger silhouette (size) a slight bonus.

22 minutes ago, Shosur0 said:

I mean I dislike universal movement rules i.e. "everyone moves the same“. Agile people should move faster than clumsier ppl. Also horses and big stuff like Trolls or Oni should also move faster. I know horses give you a bonus when you use a maneuver check but they should move more by default (or so my gaming group believes).

So I tied movement to water like in the previous edition and I gave stuff with bigger silhouette (size) a slight bonus.

giving movement bonus to bigger enemies is legit. easy fix. you can build your enemies like you want.

tying movement to water is a bit more problematic. because right now you can move 3, or 6 if you are in water stance and use your second action for "maneuver" (without the check). so already water stance moves faster, and it is actually quite STRONG to kite people... attack them, move 6 squares.. and they are cucked unless they also use water stance (which becomes less true as rank goes up because you can have techniques that make you move and attack and/or ways to prone or immobilize people etc).

toying with the movement squares each characters gets could really unbalance everything.

basically, moving faster is represented by using water stance. if you have low water, sure you can move faster too but you won't do much good with your action because you have low water ring.

and if your whole action is spent "running" then it is represented by a fitness check with the maneuver action. so moving without doing anything else is related to fitness.

you could, force the fitness check for the maneuver action to only be possible to take when in water stance, making it that you would have to roll water to make the check. if you really wanted to make water the only ring for raw mobility.

You can't really kite people in my game. If you are a water specialized bushi trying f. e. to jump in, strike and move out, I will simply wait in Earth and strike back when you come. Unless you removed the wait action... Of course you can go and do something else. Then end of turn I will maneuver to a favorable position.

16 minutes ago, Shosur0 said:

You can't really kite people in my game. If you are a water specialized bushi trying f. e. to jump in, strike and move out, I will simply wait in Earth and strike back when you come. Unless you removed the wait action... Of course you can go and do something else. Then end of turn I will maneuver to a favorable position.

you could kite with a range weapon. but yeah, kiting is not that much of an issue. though it is still strong in some situation in a skirmish, no doubt. i have not houseruled anything about movement yet, i'm using RAW. and i find it works great.

the point i wanted to make was that you want to give more movement squares (more than 3 per range band) to people with high water ring, and i don't see how this is warranted since basically, water stance double move represents that.

32 minutes ago, Shosur0 said:

You can't really kite people in my game. If you are a water specialized bushi trying f. e. to jump in, strike and move out, I will simply wait in Earth and strike back when you come. Unless you removed the wait action... Of course you can go and do something else. Then end of turn I will maneuver to a favorable position.

This only works if you have higher Initiative tho. Remember guys: Wait fizzles out at the end of the Round, so if your opponent goes first then no Wait for you, since they will always act before you can Wait but after Wait goes out!

And if you manage to go first then your opponent can just use the Guard+Void exploit to lift their Initiative Score to the stars.

To the original OP: I like hexes. I don't feel they're better, they just work better for me, so I use the tactical measurement of range bands from the book. But for movement I discard the "3 spaces per range band" and just have them place themselves somewhere in that range. I tend to use the nearest enemy as reference, so that they can't go from Range 0 from the guy they're fighting and say "I want to move 1 range band toward HER instead." It's not perfect and does require some common sense. Like, you can't move around behind the guy who is 4 range bands from you and say you only went from 4 to 3.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

And if you manage to go first then your opponent can just use the Guard+Void exploit to lift their Initiative Score to the stars. 

I don't know why that never occurred to me, but I thank you.

21 hours ago, Shosur0 said:

You can't really kite people in my game. If you are a water specialized bushi trying f. e. to jump in, strike and move out, I will simply wait in Earth and strike back when you come. Unless you removed the wait action... Of course you can go and do something else. Then end of turn I will maneuver to a favorable position.

Works well - and was the default answer to people trying to play silly buggers with stuff like open hand style.

Of course, it relies on the water dancing loon not being armed with a weapon with a greater reach than you; watch out for someone with a naginata dropping in and out of range 2 against a katana-armed opponent.

21 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

the point i wanted to make was that you want to give more movement squares (more than 3 per range band) to people with high water ring, and i don't see how this is warranted since basically, water stance double move represents that.

This.

You move 1 range band unless you are prepared to do something specific to move faster:

• Water stance gives you a 'free' manoeuvre action (but you can't choose to make a check with it)
• A manoeuvre action as your action gives you 1 free move plus 1 band if you pass a TN2 check, plus 1 band per two successes (plus extra bonus successes for 'I'm on a horse', less TN penalty for cumbersome armour or entangling terrain).

So....yeah. Any human sized opponent does move the same speed unless their action choice is "move as fast as I can", which is where higher rings and relevant advantages will make a difference.

When combat involves NPCs>PCs I use relative ranges centered on one or more characters. If characters separate, we can still account for direction and distances (it worked fairly well for a moving skirmish on horseback!). The hexgrids represented bands following the core rules (page defined already). It's obviously not perfect, and sometimes characters and enemies needed to share a space to maintain the same relative distance, but it worked out and helped visualize and organize combat.

For mass battle, the hexgrid also worked well, but just for visual and strategic reference (terrain conditions, placement, etc).

On 11/20/2018 at 9:38 AM, Shosur0 said:

I dislike universal movement rules i.e. "everyone moves the same“. Agile people should move faster than clumsier ppl. Also horses and big stuff like Trolls or Oni should also move faster. I know horses give you a bonus when you use a maneuver check but they should move more by default (or so my gaming group believes).

"Fast Runner (Water)" would be a reasonable distinction IMO (if it isn't already one - I admit I didn't look at the rules when replying). 2 dice reroll with movement actions. You could likewise let people take a "Slow runner (Water) adversity. This would spread out the movement abilities of PCs and NPCs somewhat without changing the core rules.

7 hours ago, easl said:

"Fast Runner (Water)" would be a reasonable distinction IMO (if it isn't already one - I admit I didn't look at the rules when replying). 2 dice reroll with movement actions. You could likewise let people take a "Slow runner (Water) adversity. This would spread out the movement abilities of PCs and NPCs somewhat without changing the core rules.

I'm don't believe there is, but 'fast runner' is certainly a sensible idea for a custom advantage. Water makes sense for the ring (or fire, for a sprinter); it's useful in more than just conflict scenes (there was a foot race in the original Topaz Championship, for example - not sure if there still is in this edition)

On 11/19/2018 at 1:02 AM, Tankboy_007 said:

How does everyone handle range for combat?

Specifically, if you are going to use mini's how do you determine the range bands for movement and so forth?

here is what we tried yesterday, and... went better than expected. its a rework of the Grid rules on p.266 that makes Grid rules much more similar to range band movement (to avoid discrepancies that happens under the core rules);

with these rules, you can switch between Range band movement and Grid based movement without concern.

-disregard the "diagonal squares" rule. make diagonal cost same as lateral. works in D&D, works here, works under the regular range band movement... and is simpler.

-disregard the "difficult squares" rule. in the core range band movement rule you are not slowed down by difficult terrain, so we remove that from the grid movement too.

-disregard the "combining movement" optional rule. won't work and won't be necessary with our system.

-keep the "resolving movement" rule.

and add;

-moving inside or while inside of range 2 from any hostile opponent = one range band moves 1 square [or, in other words; needs 3 squares of move to move 1 square, that is basically an equivalent of the range band rule]

-moving outside or from and away range 2 from any opponent = one range band gives you 3 square of move. [that enables you to move faster if you are not within 2 squares of an opponent and/or moving away from the opponent]

-you cannot split movement squares, if you don't use the full 3 squares for whatever reason, the left over are discarded.

example:

if you are at range 2, you can move away three squares in one range band movement.

if you are at range 1, you can move to range 2 in one range band movement.

if you are at range 2, you can move to range 1 in one range band movement.

so, the moment you enter range 2, the leftover of your movement is done (if you had any squares left).

to be able to move 3 squares per range band, you need to be in the clear, meaning, not within range 2 of ANY hostile.

Quote

so, the moment you enter range 2, the leftover of your movement is done (if you had any squares left).

Is actually more restrictive than bands. Mostly because if in Water or if running, one can cross multiple bands in a single turn.

So, the guy at 4 squares distance in water (using water's minor action as his second band) has 6 squares, gets to 2 and stops under yours, when under standard bands, he'd have crossed to range 1.

On 11/30/2018 at 12:32 AM, AK_Aramis said:

Is actually more restrictive than bands. Mostly because if in Water or if running, one can cross multiple bands in a single turn.

So, the guy at 4 squares distance in water (using water's minor action as his second band) has 6 squares, gets to 2 and stops under yours, when under standard bands, he'd have crossed to range 1.

4 squares? That would be range 3 ?

Under standard band he gets to range 1 if he moves 2 range bands (range 3 to 2 to 1)

Under my rule is the same, starts at 4 squares, move 3 squares and stop at range 2 (basically only move 2 squares with his first range band), then his second band from water action he move to range 1.

I though I made it clear that if you are over range 2 (2 squares) you can move 3 squares and that you dont "combine" movement squares so all range band of movement are their own separate 3 squares of move.

So while you are at range 3 you can move 3 squares. Until you reach range 2. Then at range 2 it is one full range band if you go inside, or 3 squares if you go outside.

The moment when you get "slower" than the standard band system is if you are at the extreme edge of range 4 or further . Because since range 4 is 4 squares long, them moving 3 squares doesnt bring you to range 3.

Its the only extreme case that makes you lose one move. Because if you are every where else in the range 4 aside the furthest square it is fine.

which is a small compromise for having the rest of the movements totally convertible between grid/band.

22 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

I though I made it clear that if you are over range 2 (2 squares) you can move 3 squares and that you dont "combine" movement squares so all range band of movement are their own separate 3 squares of move.

Nope. You failed that skill check. 😐

4 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Nope. You failed that skill check. 😐

no "combining" 😛 . so in the end you have a grid movement system that replicate almost identically the range band system. it is not totally a realistic/simulation (diagonals etc), but it allows you to switch between both ways to track movement seamlessly. I got inspired by your changes for that one!