Regardless I am looking forward to seeing more resistance ships

17 minutes ago, chr335 said:

Regardless I am looking forward to seeing more resistance ships

Same.

I'm also holding out for some First Order reinvents of other Ties. I'd love to see what their interceptors and bombers could do.

Okay, I'm taking a break from being the only guy in my office to do all the work AND try to write an episode script because I love TLJ and love talking about it. First of all, that "Cinematic Failure" video is trash, and the "points" the guy makes are either subjective opinion or disproven by actually watching the movie.

And what a movie! It has depth , yo. I was talking about it with a different guy who'd watched that video and he said, "If a movie needs this much explanation, it isn't very good," and I told him, "No, man, the fact that it involves this much discussion of themes and character means it IS good. You don't dissect the motivations and themes of a Fast and the Furious movie." (Note: I love the F&F franchise in all of its dumb awesomeness. Except 2 and Tokyo Drift, they weren't very good.)

So, first of all, here's the honest, true explanation of how the hyperspace ram works, and why it doesn't work so no one uses it. When a ship enters hyperspace, it goes into another dimension, one that does not interact with ours (except for things large enough to cause gravitic distortions like stars, planets, and Interdictors). Before entering that other dimension, it accelerates very quickly over a short distance as it "makes the jump". That short distance is the only place that the ram can work, because after that brief period the ship no longer affects anything in the normal universe.

Now, as Armada players, you know that point-blank range is where the real hurting happens. This is why hyperspace rams are not attempted all the time: by the time you're close enough to attempt it, you've eaten several full barrages and are, if not destroyed, badly damaged and probably lacking a functional hyperdrive. Instead of throwing resources down the drain on the off chance you can get this gimmick to work, you can instead do the tried and true tactic of blasting them to bits with really big guns.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

The book explains what happened next much more clearly.

I will do you one better, without needing to read the book: Holdo sees the transports being destroyed. She turns the Raddus around in a desperate act to try to save them, drawing their fire onto the flagship even for a brief period. However, Hux does not do this, he instead gives the order to ignore the Raddus and continue blasting the transports. This is a key moment. As above, you don't get to do a ram because you get shot down, especially when facing multiple FO Star Destroyers and the ludicrously big Supremacy. But they don't open up on the Raddus, and Holdo says to herself, "Self, you can do a hyperspace ram on these fools," as she closes on them and they ignore her, and the rest is very bright, very silent history.

Anyway, like I said, I can go on and on, because layers and nuance. This is not a badly written movie. I can write a ton about almost every bit of it, like how you should watch the bridge crew when Holdo and Poe argue, how Poe is dressed identically to Empire Han so you subconsciously side with him as the plucky rogue bucking authority, and how Luke's line "I failed you, Ben" is one of the most powerful in the film. I love TLJ so much, it's a love letter to Star Wars fans and I wish more people saw that.

And on topic, that video is using that Twitter screenshot to do some heavy lifting for justifying its premise. The screenshot is just about the Falcon ride, not the others per se, and he even says "As canonical as a park ride can be". Rise of the Resistance could be from pre-TFA, it could be post-TLJ; I'm inclined to believe the former since it's called "Rise" instead of "Return" or "Rebirth". We already know that the Resistance in ep 9 is more of a guerilla force than a fleet.

I mean, when you're on Star Tours it bounces between trilogies randomly. I don't think, other than doing some examination of the ships involved, you can pull much meaning out of that trailer than that without further information.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Same.

I'm also holding out for some First Order reinvents of other Ties. I'd love to see what their interceptors and bombers could do.

God I've been waiting for tie Interceptors for so long! Figured we'd see them, since they were newer/more advanced/replacing the obsolete Tie fighters, and in the ST all we've been treated to so far are Tie fighters, updated sure, but still regular tie fighters. I want me some smexy Interceptors. And not just Kylo's fighter. Plz and Ty.

4 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

God I've been waiting for tie Interceptors for so long! Figured we'd see them, since they were newer/more advanced/replacing the obsolete Tie fighters, and in the ST all we've been treated to so far are Tie fighters, updated sure, but still regular tie fighters. I want me some smexy Interceptors. And not just Kylo's fighter. Plz and Ty.

“Resistance” has given us a first glance look at an FO Interceptor, I think...

Just now, Drasnighta said:

“Resistance” has given us a first glance look at an FO Interceptor, I think...

We also got a glimpse of them in the holograms abord Benicio Del Toro's stolen weapons dealer ship.

15 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

We also got a glimpse of them in the holograms abord Benicio Del Toro's stolen weapons dealer ship.

I thought there was contention on wether those were old or new?

Granted, it’s not an argument I’ve kept up with 🙂

Side note: I have a working theory as to why we dont see crazy fleet deployments on the level of Mass Effect 3.

I believe in my head, that a LONG time ago in the Star Wars universe, some massive engagement occured and caused a set of conventions to he enacted. All armed engagement is to occur from one Z axis, to another Z axis. Which is why we see the observation platforms, and why we frequently dont see those attacked. Also why we see fleets deployed in very narrow bands and generally on the same Z axis. The observation platforms are built so the capital ship is deployed along the edge of one of tbose two axis', with the observation deck below the engagement range. Sure, they will occasionally take fire due to combat, but they arent targeted very often.

For the people wondering about the bombers: They were indeed designed to attack planetary targets, empire strongholds of the late Galactic Civil War to be precise. Check the cross section book for confirmation. Also the whole magnetic launch system for vacuum isn't really necessary, as the bombs build up momentum whilst falling through the bombers internal field of gravity and just keep their build up velocity by inertia when leaving it. Magnetic acceleration allows a faster drift though.

I still think they could have made the bombers more obviously futile by one small alteration to the script. If they had just limited the Mandator to its proposed role as a orbital bombardment weapon. Wouldn't be hard to argue that pointing these massive turbolasers on a relatively small target (which you have to hit directly, proximity detonators ftw) takes to long to get a firing solution to hit a mobile target.

About the Raddus bomb: There are some things to consider in addition to @Armada Jim 's range argument. There is an precision issue, as you have to align the whole ship, which potentially has a high moment of inertia. This kind of proven by Holdo totally missing the center of a MASSIVE ship. Also applying physics to star wars (big mistake I know) the energy of it is proportional to the mass of the ship performing the jump and the Raddus was quite huge. So an A-Wing jumping into the death star wouldn't be nearly as impressive.

So hard to weaponize hyperspace jump that it took a couple of minutes to Holdo to figure it out.

A few points, I always assumed that it was a pretty unique set of circumstances. Generally in Star Wars you don't have these long chases as 1 fleet will jump away. This led to the fleets being far more in line thsn normal and let a risky manoeuvr work. I also agree that from what we know of hyperspace, targeting this type of ram would be hard, as ships don't seem to mass enough to pull things out (otherwise nav computers would need to know the position of every ship in the galaxy and, you couldn't do the jump through ships that Hera did). So it wouldn't be nearly as simple as putting hyperdrives on rocks.

This video also talks about info from the novel and visual guide where the Raddus' experimental shields are the cause of even more of the damage.

It also tslks of a Legends story where a ship did ram a planet in yhe Clone Wars and did do massive damage, do it had been used before (it doesn't provide details of that though, like why the ship wasn't pulled out begore it hit).

Finally, as others mentioned, given the size of the Supremacy, even a ship the size of the Raddus didn't destroy it outright, it just really messed it up. Lots of characters were still fighting throughout the ship following the ram, so it wouldn't normally be a good idea. Let's scarifice out big ship to do some damage but not destroy theirs? The resource to damage situation doesn't seem to add up in any but extremely desperate situations (like this was).

So that's why I don't think we've seen it as a main tactic and while adding something new isn't going to completely destroy Star Wars fleet combat. But there's still a bunch of opinions and assumptions there, so feel free to disagree

44 minutes ago, Crewgar said:

A few points, I always assumed that it was a pretty unique set of circumstances.

...

So that's why I don't think we've seen it as a main tactic and while adding something new isn't going to completely destroy Star Wars fleet combat. But there's still a bunch of opinions and assumptions there, so feel free to disagree

The point is that it's a meaningless criticism, as we don't have (or even need to know) why it made sense in this situation and not others, just that it (obviously) did, and didn't before.

Maybe there is something about hyperfuel that prevents this kind of collision unless one ship has burned its last fuel and still made the jump to hyperspace, so will only be possible at all if a fleet chases another fleet to the point they are at empty tanks - and so who would be stupid enough to do that but Hux?

Or how about those hyperlanes that are always being talked about, and that ships need to calculate a path to hyperspace to jump outside them? Maybe it's impossible to jump into hyperspace if something is in your way unless you use a known hyperlane, and while they are usually easy to avoid crossing, the Supremacy stupidly flew into one the Raddus could use?

****, maybe bog-standard ship shields can protect you from this kind of attack, but the Supremacy was too large for shields and the technology needed to re-make Death Star-scale shields had been lost, so it's simply a matter of 'sure you can hyper-ram unshielded things, when will that ever come up again?'

etc.

You could make endless guesses why this situation was different and this tactic worked here and not other places, but such explanation wasn't in the story because it wasn't needed - the situation was different from any we've seen before, and it made this tactic viable when it wasn't in previous situations. Done. Who cares why? It literally makes no difference to the story .

1 hour ago, Crewgar said:

I  t  al  so tslks of a Legends story where a ship did ram a planet in yhe Clone Wars and did do massive damage, do it had been used before (it doesn't provide details of that though, like why t  he ship wasn't pulled out begore it hit).

Torpedo droids caused a hyperdrive malfunction for the Praetor-class battlecruiser Quaestor during a raid on Pammant. The vessel accidentally jumped into the planet, fracturing the core and filling the atmosphere with radiation.

29 minutes ago, xanderf said:

It literally makes no difference to the story .

The issue people have is the difference it makes to potential future stories, which now have to allow for it.

9 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

The issue people have is the difference it makes to potential future stories, which now have to allow for it.

Best to just ignore it, and move on. I hope future directors pay as little attention to RJ’s story as he did to his predecessors.

1 hour ago, Crewgar said:

The resource to damage situation doesn't seem to add up in any but extremely desperate situations (like this was).

Or Battle of Yavin which also was. And they got more time to set it up.

But whatever, I actually thank all the info about hyperspace jumps and the plausability of the entire scene. The main problem to me remains. There is no way for an spectator to know not even a little without deeping really in in the sw universe and even then someone could still be hard to convince. And they just use it. When you work on some kind of surprise just after the "wow!" must come "of course!", maybe even "I'm a moron for not figuring it out". If after the "wow!" what cames is a "wait!" or a "how?" then the spectator felt himseld fooled. And that's not good.

In other words. If The hyperspace ram makes sense IF the situation is desperate enough, IF the shields are down, IF the weapons are targeting someone else, IF... IF... IF... and I only see that sense IF I looked for them somewhere else, the things are done wrong. If the hyperspace ram makes sense CAUSE the situation is desperate enough, CAUSE, the shields are down or they simply aren't, CAUSE the weapons are targeting someone else, CAUSE, CAUSE, CAUSE and I am able to see that sense on the movie itself, then the things are done right.

The situation was as desperate as any other the rebellion faced before. I don't remember anything said about the shields. The weapons were targeting somewhere else but Mon Calamari ships are know to be tough ships able to stand a lot firepower, for sure enough to ram a target, or maybe it is not tough enough but we never saw the Raddus or the Supremacy before so how we could know.

At the end, when I'm asking myself "how the **** are they going to save the day", Holdo says "voilà, you didn't expected it". And I say "How I could?". That's bad filmmaking.

It is fiction, we don't need too elaborated explanations. All I need to understand why hyperspace jump cannot be weaponized may be "cause it is not that easy". Once you got that all you have to do is to make very clear WHY it is possible in that moment. That way you get "of course!" instead of "what the ****?". Poe asking for turning back and ramming them (conventionally) and being said shut up his mouth could be a decent set up. We somehow know shields stop fast things such laser beans so when we're informed the shields are down to accelerate up to hyperspace speed is a new possibility and we could not figure it out until Holdo do it. But after that it makes perfect sense, cause we know. Only with that I could live with it as DSI had its shields on, and by the time the DSII had its own down, the rebel fleet was engaged (and the ships full of people) so bombing it with the squadrons made a lot more sense.

However I thank all the new info I got and maybe I even try to see TLJ a third time, maybe even this week, to see if I get the breadcrumbs (if there are any). I hope to be able to enjoy it more. But the feeling about being impossible to fully understand the new films without digging in the books published around it bothers me. I have to acknowledge that I don't know yet what the **** is going on in sw universe. 😂

Btw. I like the winged neb. Maybe cause I like the neb.

5 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

So hard to weaponize hyperspace jump that it took a couple of minutes to Holdo to figure it out.

Or you can accept that it was a tactic that they were aware of, and she saw her chance for it and took it.

Honestly, @xanderf has the right of it: Star Wars is not hard sci-fi, it's a fantasy movie set in space. The "science" has always been secondary to the story. We're a bit spoiled by decades of speculation, technical articles, and RPG supplements purporting to explain how all this works, but think about what we really know? How long does hyperspace travel take? Why are the bombers designed in a substandard manner for their role? It takes as long as the plot demands, and Star Wars space combat has always been set with a WWII aesthetic, so they look like B2 Flying Fortresses. Done. It's like the question: which superhero wins in a fight, X or Y? The answer is: whoever the writers says.

The ram works because the desperate ramming sacrifice is a tried and true trope in movies, and that's how it's used here. Future movies don't have to worry about it because doing it again would be derivative. For those who need a technical reason why, there's what I wrote above.

2 hours ago, Bakura83 said:

Best to just ignore it, and move on. I hope future directors pay as little attention to RJ’s story as he did to his predecessors.

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. RJ's story and characterization follows what came before, and to say he didn't pay attention or ignored things is completely incorrect. You just don't like the direction he went with it.

2 hours ago, Armada Jim said:

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. RJ's story and characterization follows what came before, and to say he didn't pay attention or ignored things is completely incorrect. You just don't like the direction he went with it.

Cute, you quoted the movie.

Nice try, but no. Just no. It’s a matter of public record that Mark Hamill was not happy at all with how little RJ’s Luke connected in any way with OT Luke. It’s also a matter of public record that RJ completely ignored JJ Abrams draft of Ep 8 & 9 and went his own way, discarding what had been set up. It’s also a matter of public record that RJ enjoys making the cinematic equivalent of marmite.

I get it, you really really like McDonalds. Don’t try to argue it’s good for you. You can enjoy it all you want without getting silly.

Here is a question I had today. How big are those transports. I dont remember seeing them in the hanger of the Krait base, and if the Raddus was twice the size of home one, how many transports did they have aboard the Raddus?

14 minutes ago, Bakura83 said:

Cute, you quoted the movie.

Nice try, but no. Just no. It’s a matter of public record that Mark Hamill was not happy at all with how little RJ’s Luke connected in any way with OT Luke. It’s also a matter of public record that RJ completely ignored JJ Abrams draft of Ep 8 & 9 and went his own way, discarding what had been set up. It’s also a matter of public record that RJ enjoys making the cinematic equivalent of marmite.

I get it, you really really like McDonalds. Don’t try to argue it’s good for you. You can enjoy it all you want without getting silly.

Hamill didn't agree with the direction either, at first. He's since walked it back, stating that his initial criticism was due to his ego over the character. Which I understand completely, Luke was not some perfect hero who marched in to save the day, taking on the whole First Order with his laser sword. Except he did, but only after some soul searching and confronting the errors of his past, which makes it more powerful than Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, mighty warrior.

Rian Johnson didn't use the broad strokes of Abrams' ideas, this is true. However, they shaped the next film together, working with each other. At the end of the day, though, it's Rian's movie, and unless he's told not to by the higher-ups, he gets to make the film he wants. Frankly, I'm glad he did, Abrams' TFA was a necessary retread with added lens flare and the mystery boxes JJ so loves but it reminded everyone that Star Wars could be awesome after the slog of the prequels.

You keep stating things as fact when they're just opinion. For example, Brick is an excellent modern noir film and won several awards, which disproves your assessment of his work. You can try to be condescending all you want, but the real fact remains that you just didn't like the movie. Your criticisms of it boil down to taste, not fact.

Oh good, this thread has continued to devolve into pointlessness. Some people like TLJ. Some people don't. The End. Any questions? If so, please find a paper bag and scream any further TLJ good/bad arguments into said bag. It will be equally as productive.

Now back to spaceships! In an effort to completely hijack this thread for *my* purposes (insert evil laugh), I'm just gonna post all my ideas for First Order/Resistance Fleets. My vision is for fleets separate from Empire/Rebel, so keep that in mind. Yavaris is a big weight around Rebel squadron design, so I feel it is best to divorce these ideas from existing factions entirely.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LAi6ieteyiCOJeZvQJxjOtVE06M5umyFnCzSjHS5-ZA/edit?usp=drivesdk

P.S. I haven't updated this in months! I need to add in FO Interceptors and T-85s from the new cartoon!

I just want to see an Interdictor on the big screen. They blew their chance in Solo to use it in lieu of the ISD during the Kessel Run. Get an Interdictor on screen and Ep IX is already good to me.

5 hours ago, Armada Jim said:

You keep stating things as fact when they're just opinion. For example, Brick is an excellent modern noir film and won several awards, which disproves your assessment of his work. You can try to be condescending all you want, but the real fact remains that you just didn't like the movie. Your criticisms of it boil down to taste, not fact.

You know some people like the PT more than the OT and WAY more than the ST, right? So “reminding everyone Star Wars could be awesome after the slog of the prequels” is an opinion stated as fact. You know what else? “Brick is an excellent modern noir film” is an opinion, not a fact. A fact would be “Brick is a modern noir film”. So no, I can’t be “disproved” by your opinion. Contradictory much?

@Truthiness “ Some people like TLJ. Some people don't. The End”

I completely agree.