1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Videos like that highlight the exact reason why Star Wars fans are the worst....



Honestly, I don't know why I bother trying.

"It's bad writing"
"It's the SJWs pushing a leftist agenda"
"She's a Mary Sue"

If you believe the garbage videos like that spew, in earnest, you probably deserve the perspective that Star Wars is dead. Savor it.

I'm out.

I don't have a problem with people liking TLJ.

Despite I liked SW and I play Armada I am far from being a fan IMHO.

I think TLJ is crap. Within its own universe, in relation with her sister movies and as a movie itself. Too many things were done wrong and most of them were easy to be done right, or at least better.

But as I said I am ok with people who like it. I wish I could. I don't like Titanic either or Pearl Harbor or a tons of other films for a ton of different reasons.

I liked that video cause, as far as I could understood without subtitles, amongs some topic I already heard about he pointed other things I agree. Not strictly sw-lore related. The huge amount of turning point that can only be call cheating, or the Holdo plot line. I don't have a problem with female characters as long as they have sense. Holdo is an ******* and if she would have had a hairy beard and a **** between her legs he would still be an ******* and still makes no sense.

19 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

Perhaps we should realize that these are movies that people made up. Remember that time in Empire Strikes Back when Han and Leia get out of the Falcon with nothing but respirators on in an area that was exposed to the vacuum of space? Some things are just going to be a little off sometimes.

Also, do we see anyone jump *away* from that close to a gravity well? Nope. Han jumping into the gravity well is effectively the same as someone being pulled out of hyperspace by an interdictor's gravity well. They both seem perfectly fine to me.

Edit: As soon as I posted, I realized that we do in fact see someone jump away from that close to a gravity well, and it predates TFA. We see it in Rogue One as they leave Jedha.

Worm bellies are exposed to the vaacum of space?

13 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I don't have a problem with female characters as long as they have sense. Holdo is an ******* and if she would have had a hairy beard and a **** between her legs he would still be an ******* and still makes no sense.

Considering the nature of events that unfolded Holdo makes perfect sense. The technology Hux used to track them was downright unheard of. The idea that an enemy could track you through hyperspace without knowing your exit coordinates would be so foreign that the first, and more logical conclusion would be that someone on board that ship transmitted the exit coordinates. A spy. In that case, her secrecy makes PERFECT sense. Especially to an individual who disobeyed direct orders and caused the deaths of dozens of allies.


I can agree to disagree, she rubbed me wrong at first too.

But videos like that, I would not use to perpetuate your vision of what's wrong with TLJ, some of the stuff that guy was spewing was nasty, and represents the worst this fandom has to offer.

2 minutes ago, Bakura83 said:

Worm bellies are exposed to the vaacum of space?

They are when they are on an asteroid too small to have an atmosphere and they have their mouth open.

I do think that if Holdo had been, say, Rieekan, she would have been received differently. Probably a positive general reaction, starting from the “oh cool, Hoth dude!” to “grizzled veteran clashes with hotshot pilot” to “the Rieekan zombie ram is now canon.” Not saying that’s right or wrong (because it could be traced to fanservice for a character we already trust,) but it’s an interesting thought experiment.

2 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Considering the nature of events that unfolded Holdo makes perfect sense. The technology Hux used to track them was downright unheard of. The idea that an enemy could track you through hyperspace without knowing your exit coordinates would be so foreign that the first, and more logical conclusion would be that someone on board that ship transmitted the exit coordinates. A spy. In that case, her secrecy makes PERFECT sense. Especially to an individual who disobeyed direct orders and caused the deaths of dozens of allies.


I can agree to disagree, she rubbed me wrong at first too.

But videos like that, I would not use to perpetuate your vision of what's wrong with TLJ, some of the stuff that guy was spewing was nasty, and represents the worst this fandom has to offer.

And she definitely had the plan to put the spy aboard one of the transport and cross fingers, lol

I have to try that in my next mafia game. 😂

1 minute ago, Astrodar said:

They are when they are on an asteroid too small to have an atmosphere and they have their mouth open.

Obviously his mouth was closed, or the mist they were standing in wouldn’t have been lazily swirling around when they got out, it would have been flying out towards his mouth. Obviously he opened his mouth again as they approached because the heat from engines were tickling his throat and creating a gag reflex.

10 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

And she definitely had the plan to put the spy aboard one of the transport and cross fingers, lol

I have to try that in my next mafia game. 😂

Considering Star Wars technology, Holdo's gambit was likely that once aboard a transport, without knowing the plan, transmitting information to the First Order would become too risky as they could be seen and caught, and, given the nature of the plan, the spy would have to commit to certain death if they relayed the plan while aboard one, given the First Order's obvious reaction would be to gun down the transports (as they ended up doing because of Finn's failure). Realistically a spy would have to wait until well after landfall to secure a safe place to transmit again.

Since the plan was to call for help on Crait, Holdo probably thought that would give her enough time to either escape or get reinforcements to fight off the First Order.

This all makes perfect sense. As long as you start with the assumption that a spy gave up those exit coordinates.

20 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Considering the nature of events that unfolded Holdo makes perfect sense. The technology Hux used to track them was downright unheard of. The idea that an enemy could track you through hyperspace without knowing your exit coordinates would be so foreign that the first, and more logical conclusion would be that someone on board that ship transmitted the exit coordinates. A spy. In that case, her secrecy makes PERFECT sense. Especially to an individual who disobeyed direct orders and caused the deaths of dozens of allies.

Nevermind: military. Chain of command. She's an Admiral . That's not exactly some rando new hire who just showed up for their first day on the job. Even without the otherwise-obvious-conclusion of a spy onboard the ship, it would still not be reasonable to expect her to have to explain her orders to her subordinates.

12 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Nevermind: military. Chain of command. She's an Admiral . That's not exactly some rando new hire who just showed up for their first day on the job. Even without the otherwise-obvious-conclusion of a spy onboard the ship, it would still not be reasonable to expect her to have to explain her orders to her subordinates.

Agreed.

30 minutes ago, Bakura83 said:

Obviously his mouth was closed, or the mist they were standing in wouldn’t have been lazily swirling around when they got out, it would have been flying out towards his mouth.  Obviously he opened his mouth again as they approached because the heat from engines were tickling his throat and creating a gag reflex.

They had to get inside somehow. The worm had to have its mouth open at one point. Any moisture and atmosphere (read pressure) provided by the worm would have been lost while the mouth was open.

Now lets assume that the worm closes its mouth after they are inside without anyone on the Falcon noticing. You still have to provide more moisture and atmosphere to refill the cavity and bring it up to a pressure and temperature that you can walk around outside the Falcon.

The mouth that we see doesn't look at all like it can create a reasonable seal to prevent loss of atmosphere, but I will give you that this part is my opinion.

Back to the main point, Star Wars isn't real. It's all made up. Sometimes things will be wonky and wrong. Plot holes will exist. That is the nature of entertainment.

7 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Nevermind: military. Chain of command. She's an Admiral . That's not exactly some rando new hire who just showed up for their first day on the job. Even without the otherwise-obvious-conclusion of a spy onboard the ship, it would still not be reasonable to expect her to have to explain her orders to her subordinates.

Amilyn Holdo: In her youth, she served as legistlative assistant in the Imperial Senate, where she met one young Leia Organa. The two became friends, and later on both joined the Alliance to Restore the Republic. She became a Senator and was later given the command of the cruiser Ninka and given the rank of Vice Admiral.

As a soldier, I would trust her only as far as she is a political leader of the Republic, but is hardly a military commander. However, I do agree with what has been said before with the Spy angle. It was a far more likely probability, and during my first initial viewing I actually believed thats what the truth was going to be. She still doesnt have to explain any orders at all, as she is in command as the chain of command dictates, and when Captian Damoran confronted her after his mistake, I would have sided with her.

30 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Considering Star Wars technology, Holdo's gambit was likely that once aboard a transport, without knowing the plan, transmitting information to the First Order would become too risky as they could be seen and caught, and, given the nature of the plan, the spy would have to commit to certain death if they relayed the plan while aboard one, given the First Order's obvious reaction would be to gun down the transports (as they ended up doing because of Finn's failure). Realistically a spy would have to wait until well after landfall to secure a safe place to transmit again.

Since the plan was to call for help on Crait, Holdo probably thought that would give her enough time to either escape or get reinforcements to fight off the First Order.

This all makes perfect sense. As long as you start with the assumption that a spy gave up those exit coordinates.

Then she is only delaying. If she wants that and suspects the spy need to send the exit point she could just switch off coms and jump. Done.

Or maybe she was unsure about the com channel the spy was using. Maybe a portable device. Then how to be sure he can't make use of it inside the transport. It could just require to push a button.

But even if she is quite sure the spy won't be able to communicate with the FO. Hux won't follow the Raddus until he knows where it is going what let the Rebellion on ground and the FO's fleet just in orbit.

No sense.

3 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

Amilyn Holdo  : In her youth, she served as legistlative assistant in the Imperial Senate, where she met one young Leia Organa. The two became friends, and later on both joined the Alliance to Restore the Republic. She became a Senator and was later given the command of the cruiser Ninka and given the rank of Vice Admiral.

As a soldier, I would trust her only as far as she is a political leader of the Republic, but is hardly a military commander.

Missing a few parts of her bio:
"According to Dameron, Holdo was recognized within the Resistance as a great strategic mind due to her actions the Battle of Chyron Belt and was admired even by Admiral Ackbar."

3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

But even if she is quite sure the spy won't be able to communicate with the FO. Hux won't follow the Raddus until he knows where it is going what let the Rebellion on ground and the FO's fleet just in orbit.

No sense.

The FO, like the Empire before it, likely wouldnt care about retrieving its contact. Hux likely would have had gun teams fire upon the transports before they could reach the ground if a spy had indeed been, spying. Killing the entire resistance force we see, including the spy. Or if the FO wanted to do a ground assault as a show of force, you would want intel as to what to bring. IE, the siege cannon.

4 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Missing a few parts of her bio:
"According to Dameron, Holdo was recognized within the Resistance as a great strategic mind due to her actions the Battle of Chyron Belt and was admired even by Admiral Ackbar."

Didnt see that. Interesting. Well then, I would have followed her at that point then, personally that is. I am just a ground pounder / graphic artist though... not some navy guy. Soooooo..... I would have been one of the security guys watching the bridge/transports until landing.

25 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Nevermind: military. Chain of command. She's an Admiral . That's not exactly some rando new hire who just showed up for their first day on the job. Even without the otherwise-obvious-conclusion of a spy onboard the ship, it would still not be reasonable to expect her to have to explain her orders to her subordinates.

Agree but that feels to close to how the Empire worked.

Do this, don't ask, I don't care about your concerns.

15 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

then how to be sure he can't make use of it inside the transport. It could just require to push a button.

see

51 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

given the nature of the plan, the spy would have to commit to certain death if they relayed the plan while aboard one, given the First Order's obvious reaction would be to gun down the transports

Because of Holdo's silence, the spy wouldn't know the full plan until already in the transport. If they transmitted that information while on board, the First Order wouldn't be able to differentiate targets. It would be suicide.

15 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Then she is only delaying. If she wants that and suspects the spy need to send the exit point she could just switch off coms and jump. Done.

see

15 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Or maybe she was unsure about the com channel the spy was using. Maybe a portable device.

A portable or semi portable device would likely be used, even if it wasn't there's no way of stopping a skilled slicer from overriding shut off comms.

15 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

But even if she is quite sure the spy won't be able to communicate with the FO. Hux won't follow the Raddus until he knows where it is going what let the Rebellion on ground and the FO's fleet just in orbit.

I think this one was lost in translation, I'm having a hard time understanding your point.

With Hux none the wiser about the plan, the FO would follow the raddus until either it's fuel ran out and it could be destroyed (as he intended from the start), or until the spy transmitted their location on Crait.

Eitherway, Holdo knew the base would be fortified, even if the spy transmitted upon landfall, she could bunker up and call for help. Which WAS the actual plan.

6 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Agree but that feels to close to how the Empire worked.

Do this, don't ask, I don't care about your concerns.

From what I've heard. Most militaries operate this way.

8 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

see

Because of Holdo's silence, the spy wouldn't know the full plan until already in the transport. If they transmitted that information while on board, the First Order wouldn't be able to differentiate targets. It would be suicide.

see

A portable or semi portable device would likely be used, even if it wasn't there's no way of stopping a skilled slicer from overriding shut off comms.

I think this one was lost in translation, I'm having a hard time understanding your point.

With Hux none the wiser about the plan, the FO would follow the raddus until either it's fuel ran out and it could be destroyed (as he intended from the start), or until the spy transmitted their location on Crait.

Eitherway, Holdo knew the base would be fortified, even if the spy transmitted upon landfall, she could bunker up and call for help. Which WAS the actual plan.

Maybe I missed something. I was sure the plan was to jump with the Raddus hoping for the FO tracking it and letting the Rebellion at Crait. What has no sense as the FO fleet cannot jump until get the exit of that is what Holdo thought was happening. And the spy would have said they were at Crait as Holdo put the spy aboard the transports.

As I said I doubted the plan was to bunk in Crait. They hope to see the FO fleet passo through. The plan changed when they got discovered. At least that's what I remember I could be wrong.

28 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

They had to get inside somehow. The worm had to have its mouth open at one point. Any moisture and atmosphere (read pressure) provided by the worm would have been lost while the mouth was open.

Now lets assume that the worm closes its mouth after they are inside without anyone on the Falcon noticing. You still have to provide more moisture and atmosphere to refill the cavity and bring it up to a pressure and temperature that you can walk around outside the Falcon.

The mouth that we see doesn't look at all like it can create a reasonable seal to prevent loss of atmosphere, but I will give you that this part is my opinion.

Back to the main point, Star Wars isn't real. It's all made up. Sometimes things will be wonky and wrong. Plot holes will exist. That is the nature of entertainment.

On this topic, it's simple, Space isn't a vaccum in Star Wars (though it could be argued that it does have very little atmosphere).... it transmits sound (Tie Fighters)(unless that sound sensors theory is correct), ships list and fall (Executor + ships in high orbit around Coruscant), and there's atmosphere (if limited) inside Space Slugs. It's not that hard lol Yay Science Fantasy and the fact that's based around WWII movies.

I mean that's also why the Bombers that have to fly over their targets and drop bombs (how does that work without gravity), unlike the the energy torpedoes and bombs of B and Y-Wings makes any real sense.

Again not arguing against these points, I enjoy all the movies, and do really enjoy TLJ, but I'm not going to close my mind to the oddities, and instead going to try and figure out explanations

It's also why in the EU Luke can spacewalk without a suite and Jedi Trance with a ripped one, and survive as long as he's only out in it a bit, so it's also not just new cannon

42 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Nevermind: military. Chain of command. She's an Admiral . That's not exactly some rando new hire who just showed up for their first day on the job. Even without the otherwise-obvious-conclusion of a spy onboard the ship, it would still not be reasonable to expect her to have to explain her orders to her subordinates.

Having just recently left the Navy I can tell you the battle group admiral never let's the crew believe there isn't a plan. More importantly Poe isn't some low ranked hotshot he is specifically being groomed by Leia to take over for her and in the fleet is still the second or third ranking officer and has to explain the plan to his subordinates. Yes she doesn't have to explain the entire plan but that's no reason to imply to everyone that there is no plan which us why most of the remaining resistance supported Poe even before the big public call out by Poe (ie bridge crew helping to hide Finn and Rose departing, hanger bay letting them use the shuttle, etc)

More importantly Holdo identified Poe as a loose cannon and didn't given him a task where she could keep an eye on him. First rule of military leadership always always give the loose cannon extra oversight to prevent rogue ops.

3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Maybe I missed something. I was sure the plan was to jump with the Raddus hoping for the FO tracking it and letting the Rebellion at Crait. What has no sense as the FO fleet cannot jump until get the exit of that is what Holdo thought was happening. And the spy would have said they were at Crait as Holdo put the spy aboard the transports.

As I said I doubted the plan was to bunk in Crait. They hope to see the FO fleet passo through. The plan changed when they got discovered. At least that's what I remember I could be wrong.

Ah, I see where the misunderstanding is. The plan wasn't to jump into hyperspace. Holdo loaded all the fuel they could afford into the transports to get them to the surface of Crait. The plan was to silently evac the Raddus and let it run out of fuel so the First Order could destroy it, assuming the resistance dead, and pass Crait by entirely without a second thought. So the plan was to bunker down, hide and call for help.

The book explains what happened next much more clearly.

When Poe stormed the bridge waiting for Finn's plan to work, he'd entered hyperspace coordinates planning to jump the Raddus as soon as Finn disabled the tracker. That plan failed but the coordinates were still in the computer.

Holdo was panicking once the First Order started destroying the transports. Not knowing what to do she took the helm where she noticed the Nav computer blinking a warning. In the time that passed since the coordinates were entered the Raddus had passed the entry coordinates, the coordinates were now all the way behind the Supremacy, when she sees this it's at that point that she clears the error and tells the Raddus to jump to hyperspace. Hitting the Supremacy before the Raddus reached the entry coordinates.

I advise checking out the book from the library sometime, it sheds some needed insight.

24 minutes ago, Crewgar said:

I mean that's also why the Bombers that have to fly over their targets and drop bombs (how does that work without gravity), unlike the the energy torpedoes and bombs of B and Y-Wings makes any real sense.

At least that was explained. It's done with magnets directing the bombs downward.

Ya, I saw that afterwords. Still think it's more a WWII aesthetic 'hey look there's a reason' thing, but again that goes back through all of Star Wars. Just like the placements of the defence guns on the turrets (and ships), exposure (and complaints of the gun crews) etc. But as I was just arguing about coming up with in universe answers, all I can say is I'm glad others do the same

1 hour ago, Astrodar said:

Back to the main point,

No thanks. I’d rather debate the hypothetical biological functions of a fictitious space slug’s gut than talk about Holdo.