16 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Ok, now u made me watch TLJ again...

I see big FO ship about to blow up Raddus, just waiting to recharge, then the last bomber manages to take it out first.

Good work heroic bomber crews! Oh wait, you're actually not heroes. BC Leia and Purple Lady. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Relatedly. Good thing that ship didn't follow the rest of the fleet when the Raddus ran out of fuel. Bc THEN it would try to shoot, and maybe the bombers would have to come in again and try to rescue the Raddus? And fail miserably?

16 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Except this is long after the order to retreat was issued. (The video was edited down, I can't find an unedited version without making it myself). When the retreat order was issued, the Fulminatrix hadn't even taken aim at the Raddus, it was still aiming at the destroyed base. Considering that every rebel fighter and bomber is hyperspace capable, had Poe relayed the correct order they could have turned around and escaped long before the Fulminatrix had time to charge up a second attack. ****, maybe even escaped before it could take aim again.

I'm under the impression that the dreadnoughts are slower than the resurgent class and supremacy, if that's the case, I don't see one taking a valid shot at any point during the chase. With or without bomber survival.

I'm not even sure if saving the bombers would have mattered in the long run as the only preventable deaths may have been that of the fighters in the hangar, and maybe the leadership on the bridge.

I say this because the bombers seem to not need being carried by cruiser, which implies they'd have jumped into hyperspace without docking, which means when Kylo goes murder happy on the hangar the bombers may have put out enough turret fire to delay the attack long enough for the fighters to launch and drive him off.

15 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Agreed. In the moment, Poe did save the Raddus despite losing the bombers. If the Raddus had jumped and then been followed, what would have stopped the dreadnought from firing again? And how would the bombers take it down with the full might of the FO there to defend it?

Plus, I think you guys are missing the point. Everyone on the Raddus died or ended on up on the Falcon. It's not like saving those bombers would have been useful since the Raddus was obliterated AND THE ******* HANGER WAS DESTROYED.

So in hindsight, Poe made the right decision.

These three don't take in consideration that the rebel fleet didn't expect to be chased down by the FO fleet.

Even if later we could see how much useful/useless the bigboomship would have been later or the help those bombers could have provided, that wasn't something within Poe's head or Leia's one.

Which point this reinforces is something I let up to you. 😉

4 hours ago, Belisarius09 said:

I'm done with this quibbling if you are. The topic was on the new resistance fleet. What'd you think of the designs?

Ugly, derivative, forgettable. All the sequel ships are at least one of those three.

I would have much preferred the FO to have a mixture of older OT era designs and a few newer, much different designs that showed visiually that they had foundations of both the old empire but also were evolving a new identity based on their new home in the unknown regions. Think the Byzantine Empire.

And no, “newer, much different” does not mean larger and blacker.

I do think the ST did this much more successfully with Kylo Ren’s design and the new storm trooper armour by the way, and the Imperial officer uniforms.

My main issue with the resistance heavy bombers is they seemed better designed for planetary assualt then hitting enemy capital ships which seems out of character for the New Republic and even more so for the Resistance. Maybe if they had a slam booster like legends k-wings, could launch long range anti capital ship missiles, or had better shields and or armor to take a hit or two they could be decent ships.

The funny thing is these bombers would have been far more effective attacking star killer base energy oscillator then the x-wings they sent.

14 hours ago, Belisarius09 said:

Let's take the bombing scene. I get what people are saying in terms of %of military might the trade off might not have been positive or even for the resistance. But that honestly begs the question what good are those bombers even? Poe had to knock out that last cannon or the attack couldn't happen like at all? How useless must those bombers be in any other scenario ever. This was their only chance, prisitne conditions, to put those bombers to use. Poe knocked out ALL the cannons and the FO was late to launch their fighters. I doubt calling those slow moving bombers back would've saved any time compared to the bombers making their bombing run because the resistance tdidn't have to wait for them as they all went down. The strength of those bombers was their payload, and they were put to good use Imo. I can't imagine another scenario that could've gone better for them.

First off, I have no issue with people who have legitimate criticisms, as someone who enjoyed the film I have my own. When I made the meme I was very careful to highlight the most ridiculous of the claims.

-Hyperspace plothole
-ruined childhood
-Mary sue
-RJ is dumb
-Social Justice Warriors

If one of these laughable claims is one of yours, at this point then I'm sorry the slipper fits, but based on your first criticism, I don't think it does. In short the meme was made for salty Star Wars fans who hated the movie for obnoxious reasons and or quickly jump to make fun of things from the movie in casual conversations.


As for your criticism

I kinda touched on this later in the thread, the resistance was not a large military organization. They didn't have the best gear as most of it was torn down as part of the Military disarmament Act.These were likely the only bombers available to them. If you look at the lore for the star-fortress bombers, they were issued late in the galactic civil war, which means they probably didn't see the action as the various other bomber we saw in the OT and were easier to obtain early on. The other possible theory, and what seems much more likely based on the size of First Order ships, they chose the B/SF-17 specifically for it's large payload. It's possible no other available ship had the kind of bombing capability necessary to breach the hull and destroy the reactors of large ships.

Worth reading:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MG-100_StarFortress_SF-17



Were the conditions clear? Yeah, honestly, B-wings or Y-wings could probably have hit the target much more efficiently, but even if the resistance could get that kind of equipment, would it have been powerful enough?

For me there's definitely enough context within the films and the surrounding lore to suspend disbelief

28 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Were the conditions clear? Yeah, honestly, B-wings or Y-wings could probably have hit the target much more efficiently, but even if the resistance could get that kind of equipment, would it have been powerful enough?

For me there's definitely enough context within the films and the surrounding lore to suspend disbelief

B-wings yes y-wings probably not

4 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

These three don't take in consideration that the rebel fleet didn't expect to be chased down by the FO fleet.

Even if later we could see how much useful/useless the bigboomship would have been later or the help those bombers could have provided, that wasn't something within Poe's head or Leia's one.

Which point this reinforces is something I let up to you. 😉

The real blunder was not targeting the Raddus immediately. Why shoot the evacuated stationary target when you see the evac ships flying away?

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

The real blunder was not targeting the Raddus immediately. Why shoot the evacuated stationary target when you see the evac ships flying away?

Because Hux, while a genius in the fields of technology, is pure dog-**** at strategy. The sad part is, every officer under him knows it too. (The book really made it clear that the only reason Snoke gave him the power he craved was to keep him under control and reap the technological benefits).

12 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Because Hux, while a genius in the fields of technology, is pure dog-**** at strategy. The sad part is, every officer under him knows it too. (The book really made it clear that the only reason Snoke gave him the power he craved was to keep him under control and reap the technological benefits).

At least it is official. It would be annoying if they insisted on pretending he was skilled.

2 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

At least it is official. It would be annoying if they insisted on pretending he was skilled.

Nah, even the officer who said "I believe he's tooling with you sir" had spent a fair amount of time exchanging glances with the captain. And poor Captain Canady takes the harshest brunt of Hux's stupidity. Canady knew Hux was a moron. Before Hux hyperspaced in Canady gave an order to prep the fighters for launch. Hux gave him **** over it and rescinded the order. Canady even wanted to fire on the cruiser first, but was given strict orders to follow Hux's orders exactly. Dude got killed for it.

People misunderstand the Bomber scene.

Leia and Holdo are angry because Poe went AWOL and performed an unauthorized military strike that got a significant set of military assets obliterated AND...

He wants to do the exact same thing against the Supremacy.

Poe like Hux is talented but a poor strategist.

Ok, one last thing regarding that bombing run attack and it's tactical value/plauibility/etc...


Why didn't they just hyperspace one bomber into the Dreadnaught? The payload on a single bomber is clearly enough to take out the entire ship. Heck, hyperspace one bomber into each of the First Order's ships.

Or, ****, just hyperspace right "above" the enemy ship, then drop your bombs. Don't lazily fly over there in a straight line as you all blow-up.

Resistance is tactically inept, not using hyperspace... bunch of morons, the lot of them. At least the First Order is even more inept, though, to give them a fighting chance...

2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Ok, one last thing regarding that bombing run attack and it's tactical value/plauibility/etc...

Why didn't they just hyperspace one bomber into the Dreadnaught? The payload on a single bomber is clearly enough to take out the entire ship. Heck, hyperspace one bomber into each of the First Order's ships.

Or, ****, just hyperspace right "above" the enemy ship, then drop your bombs. Don't lazily fly over there in a straight line as you all blow-up.

Resistance is tactically inept, not using hyperspace... bunch of morons, the lot of them. At least the First Order is even more inept, though, to give them a fighting chance...

I’m fairly certain no one thinks the Hyperspace ram can actually work as a legitimate tactic until Holdo does it.

My genuine hope for episode 9 is that each First Order Fleet has an interdictor escort.

2 minutes ago, Forresto said:

I’m fairly certain no one thinks the Hyperspace ram can actually work as a legitimate tactic until Holdo does it.

That's one explanation... That it would simply never occurred to anyone and Holdo just had the first "...EUREKA!" moment. Or maybe that it was conceivable but just low-probability, but even then someone would have tried to find ways to make it more reliable...like the entire branches of galaxy-wide militaries doing weapon R&D and frequently searching for the next best superweapon. Even if it was conceivable but unlikely... you'd think that in all of the thousands of hopeless death-inevitable struggles fought across the galaxy over the years...someone desperate would have bothered to try it...

What a galaxy full of complete lazy nincompoops, apparently. Feels kind of hard to root or care about any of them....

13 minutes ago, Forresto said:

My genuine hope for episode 9 is that each First Order Fleet has an interdictor escort.

I mean... why wouldn't they have had an interdictor escort already...? They knew they were going to go play mop-up and kill all the fleeing Resistance ships. Pretty crazy to not bring an interdictor.

Though... an interdictor wouldn't work anymore. Han proved in TFA you can just hyperspace right through a gravity well anyways if you flip off a warning light... so like if an interdictor cruiser has got you pinned and capture/torture/death is inevitable... just do what Han did and hyperspace away anyways.




Ugh, Disney and hyperspace...

Bad hyperspace argument is bad.

There are plenty of rationalizations that fit within the confines of the lore. Now stop, you're getting **** all over our nice things.

18 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

15 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

No idea what the **** is going on with the quotes.

I recently saw this and I liked it:

https://youtu.be/5ECwhB21Pnk

Videos like that highlight the exact reason why Star Wars fans are the worst....



Honestly, I don't know why I bother trying.

"It's bad writing"
"It's the SJWs pushing a leftist agenda"
"She's a Mary Sue"

If you believe the garbage videos like that spew, in earnest, you probably deserve the perspective that Star Wars is dead. Savor it.

I'm out.

6 hours ago, Bakura83 said:

Ugly, derivative, forgettable. All the sequel ships are at least one of those three.

I would have much preferred the FO to have a mixture of older OT era designs and a few newer, much different designs that showed visiually that they had foundations of both the old empire but also were evolving a new identity based on their new home in the unknown regions. Think the Byzantine Empire.

And no, “newer, much different” does not mean larger and blacker.

I do think the ST did this much more successfully with Kylo Ren’s design and the new storm trooper armour by the way, and the Imperial officer uniforms.

Concur.

Which is weird, because clearly at least someone at Disney "gets it". The new stuff in Rogue One was universally excellent - from the U-Wing and TIE Striker (a sensible derivation of a TIE design focused on atmospheric flight), the Zeta-class cargo shuttle an obvious extrapolation of other Imperial shuttles to 'heavy lift' capability, etc. It all looked solidly building on the foundation of the original era movies, yet still distinctly different designs.

Even 'Solo' did alright at this - the shinier Falcon made sense, the TIE/brute looks like a believable predecessor to the TIE Bomber, even the Imperial Arrestor cruiser looks like it at least fit into the existing fleet in a specialized role, without everything being so literally carbon-copies of what we'd seen before.

32 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Videos like that highlight the exact reason why Star Wars fans are the worst....



Honestly, I don't know why I bother trying.

"It's bad writing"
"It's the SJWs pushing a leftist agenda"
"She's a Mary Sue"

If you believe the garbage videos like that spew, in earnest, you probably deserve the perspective that Star Wars is dead. Savor it.

I'm out.

But without that video, where will garbage white males go to express their opinion? It's the internet and I'm both white AND male, EVERYONE should listen to me! No one else's perspective but mine matters, for it's ONLY white men who have done anything in history. And only good stuff, too.

In conclusion, San Dimas High School football rules, thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

That's one explanation... That it would simply never occurred to anyone and Holdo just had the first "...EUREKA!" moment. Or maybe that it was conceivable but just low-probability, but even then someone would have tried to find ways to make it more reliable...like the entire branches of galaxy-wide militaries doing weapon R&D and frequently searching for the next best superweapon. Even if it was conceivable but unlikely... you'd think that in all of the thousands of hopeless death-inevitable struggles fought across the galaxy over the years...someone desperate would have bothered to try it...

What a galaxy full of complete lazy nincompoops, apparently. Feels kind of hard to root or care about any of them....

Or , there was a massive Imperial laboratory somewhere devoted for a decade to nothing but weaponizing hyperspace. Did you see how many Imperial files were in the Scarif vault? Why assume nobody else seriously tried? It seems unbelievably likely that they did. The Rebellion might not have had the R&D capacity, and focused instead on safer, lower-reward projects like the B-wing.

On another note, Han didn't, to my understanding, go through a gravity well... he stopped near the center of one. Now why he wasn't splattered across the planetary shield is a very good question.

17 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Did you see how many Imperial files were in the Scarif vault?

Yeah but those files on scarif could only manage a crappy 1970’s era jpg of a rotating Death Star outline on a data disk the size of a VHS tape. That whole file tower probably had about 512MB capacity tops.

22 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

On another note, Han didn't, to my understanding, go through a gravity well... he stopped near the center of one. Now why he wasn't splattered across the planetary shield is a very good question.

Well, that means he went halfway through one. Should still allow enough for most ships to hyperspace out of the wells of interdictors.

As to why he didn't splatter on the shield... he clearly states that shields don't stop stuff going faster than light. So, that's how shields work now, apparently.

36 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Or , there was a massive Imperial laboratory somewhere devoted for a decade to nothing but weaponizing hyperspace. Did you see how many Imperial files were in the Scarif vault? Why assume nobody else seriously tried? It seems unbelievably likely that they did. The Rebellion might not have had the R&D capacity, and focused instead on safer, lower-reward projects like the B-wing.

You dump all your money into researching heavy bombers, then you go hit Berlin/Coruscant for like 6 turns in a row. They fold soon after when Russia/Mon Calimari comes in and blows everything up.

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

But without that video, where will garbage white males go to express their opinion? It's the internet and I'm both white AND male, EVERYONE should listen to me! No one else's perspective but mine matters, for it's ONLY white men who have done anything in history. And only good stuff, too.

In conclusion, San Dimas High School football rules, thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

I'm just so sick of it all. It's ridiculous. The resistance, while not large is a military organization. You don't disobey orders! Period. Poe ignores an order, gets dozens of pilots killed, and only gets a slap and a demotion? Oh yes, Leia the matriarch of feminism sure did assert her fem-thority huh... No court marshal, wasn't immediately sent to the brig, no dishonorable discharge, ****, in some armies he'd be lucky not to catch a bullet to the head.

Then you get to Holdo withholding the plan. Yeah, she's just being queen *****, that what that is. Totally not a rational protocol when you have no idea how the enemy obtained your location. She's just swinging her massive fem-cod around because SJWs! I'm sure it had NOTHING to do with Hyperspace tracking being such a rare tech that it was thought to be impossible, leaving the next logical conclusion to be a spy. It's not like there's a real world precedence for keeping plans quiet-



Oh wait I guess there is. Well **** me right?

THE SJWS!


Again disobeys orders gets dozens killed, is seen as the heroic leader by the end of the film. Hmmmmm the might ****** must be behind this.

19 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well, that means he went halfway through one. Should still allow enough for most ships to hyperspace out of the wells of interdictors.

As to why he didn't splatter on the shield... he clearly states that shields don't stop stuff going faster than light. So, that's how shields work now, apparently. 

Perhaps we should realize that these are movies that people made up. Remember that time in Empire Strikes Back when Han and Leia get out of the Falcon with nothing but respirators on in an area that was exposed to the vacuum of space? Some things are just going to be a little off sometimes.

Also, do we see anyone jump *away* from that close to a gravity well? Nope. Han jumping into the gravity well is effectively the same as someone being pulled out of hyperspace by an interdictor's gravity well. They both seem perfectly fine to me.

Edit: As soon as I posted, I realized that we do in fact see someone jump away from that close to a gravity well, and it predates TFA. We see it in Rogue One as they leave Jedha.