You forget it was about to blow up the Raddus.

I don't think Leia would have been mad at Poe if the Raddus wasn't able to jump at this point. Thus I deduce that wasn't the case which means they waited for the bombers. That's probably even more stupid. Abandoning them would have been the better move in that case.

31 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

You forget it was about to blow up the Raddus.

How do you figure?

>Dreadnought arrives
>Poe engages dreadnought
>Dreadnought fires volley at empty base
>Evacuation simultaneously completed
>Leia issues retreat
>Poe ignores order (at this point he hadn't even cleared the surface cannons for the bombers)

Considering the order of these events, and that the Fulminatrix wasn't even able to get it's second volley off at the fleet by the time the bombers were called in and in position to blow the dreadnought up, that dreadnought was in no way, shape or form "about to blow up the Raddus" when the call was made.

Ok, now u made me watch TLJ again...

I see big FO ship about to blow up Raddus, just waiting to recharge, then the last bomber manages to take it out first.

Good work heroic bomber crews! Oh wait, you're actually not heroes. BC Leia and Purple Lady. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Relatedly. Good thing that ship didn't follow the rest of the fleet when the Raddus ran out of fuel. Bc THEN it would try to shoot, and maybe the bombers would have to come in again and try to rescue the Raddus? And fail miserably?

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

I see big FO ship about to blow up Raddus, just waiting to recharge, then the last bomber manages to take it out first.

Except this is long after the order to retreat was issued. (The video was edited down, I can't find an unedited version without making it myself). When the retreat order was issued, the Fulminatrix hadn't even taken aim at the Raddus, it was still aiming at the destroyed base. Considering that every rebel fighter and bomber is hyperspace capable, had Poe relayed the correct order they could have turned around and escaped long before the Fulminatrix had time to charge up a second attack. ****, maybe even escaped before it could take aim again.

I'm under the impression that the dreadnoughts are slower than the resurgent class and supremacy, if that's the case, I don't see one taking a valid shot at any point during the chase. With or without bomber survival.

I'm not even sure if saving the bombers would have mattered in the long run as the only preventable deaths may have been that of the fighters in the hangar, and maybe the leadership on the bridge.

I say this because the bombers seem to not need being carried by cruiser, which implies they'd have jumped into hyperspace without docking, which means when Kylo goes murder happy on the hangar the bombers may have put out enough turret fire to delay the attack long enough for the fighters to launch and drive him off.

54 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Relatedly. Good thing that ship didn't follow the rest of the fleet when the Raddus ran out of fuel. Bc THEN it would try to shoot, and maybe the bombers would have to come in again and try to rescue the Raddus? And fail miserably?

Agreed. In the moment, Poe did save the Raddus despite losing the bombers. If the Raddus had jumped and then been followed, what would have stopped the dreadnought from firing again? And how would the bombers take it down with the full might of the FO there to defend it?

Plus, I think you guys are missing the point. Everyone on the Raddus died or ended on up on the Falcon. It's not like saving those bombers would have been useful since the Raddus was obliterated AND THE ******* HANGER WAS DESTROYED.

So in hindsight, Poe made the right decision.

Btw: how come the Raddus + those frigates had a couple hundred crew? After evacuating the base?

34 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Btw: how come the Raddus + those frigates had a couple hundred crew? After evacuating the base?

The resistance was not a large military organization.

Everyone compares them to the rebels from the OT but in earnest the resistance was pretty small. After the losses suffered from the Assault on Starkiller, the losses suffered during the evacuation, and the forces sent out across the galaxy to assemble allies just before TLJ, the resistance is only 400-500 people.

It was interesting how TLJ novelization touched on Snoke's rise to power, on the surface, in the known regions, the remnant Empire appeared to be complying with the Military Disarmament Act. In the background, even before Palpatine fell Snoke was gathering power in the unknown regions. Once Ole Papa Palpy fell, Snoke started collecting the pieces of the Imperial remnant that fled to the weapon caches, ship yards, and supply depots hidden across the unknown regions by Palpatine in the event of his fall. To the known galaxy, the imperial remnant wasn't a threat, they only had a small mass of ISDs and support ships holding the regions of space they were granted in the treaty. The First Order was seen as a small extremist splinter cell of the Imperial remnant with only a few battle cruisers at their disposal. The New Republic had no idea that the First Order was amassing fleets in unknown space, and until just after the events of starkiller, even the resistance had no idea that the First Order was as large as it is, by then it was too late. The Republic and it's fleet vaporized. Many of the resistance pilots killed taking out starkiller and defending the evac. Allies and assets mostly scattered in the outer rim regions.

Also, as far as I know, the New Republic viewed the resistance as warmongers, they condemned the resistance openly.

No, no, no.....DO NOT WANT asymmetric ships.

22 minutes ago, strikenowhere said:

No, no, no.....DO NOT WANT asymmetric ships.

5 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Let me amend that - DO NOT WANT any NEW asymmetric ships! That Resistance frigate looks ridiculous.

49 minutes ago, strikenowhere said:

Let me amend that - DO NOT WANT any NEW asymmetric ships! That Resistance frigate looks ridiculous.

Fantastic. Can't like this enough 😂

10 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I really shouldn't expect any better from star wars fans in a thread with "TLJ" in it.

[MUH CHILDHOOD INTENSIFIES]

I really can't stand attitudes like this. You're clumping everyone who disliked TLJ into one group and writing them off. You're not addressing legitimate criticisms of the film because that would take critical thinking and effort. Moving on.

Let's take the bombing scene. I get what people are saying in terms of %of military might the trade off might not have been positive or even for the resistance. But that honestly begs the question what good are those bombers even? Poe had to knock out that last cannon or the attack couldn't happen like at all? How useless must those bombers be in any other scenario ever. This was their only chance, prisitne conditions, to put those bombers to use. Poe knocked out ALL the cannons and the FO was late to launch their fighters. I doubt calling those slow moving bombers back would've saved any time compared to the bombers making their bombing run because the resistance tdidn't have to wait for them as they all went down. The strength of those bombers was their payload, and they were put to good use Imo. I can't imagine another scenario that could've gone better for them.

7 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

I really can't stand attitudes like this. You're clumping everyone who disliked TLJ into one group and writing them off. You're not addressing legitimate criticisms of the film because that would take critical thinking and effort. Moving on.

Let's take the bombing scene. I get what people are saying in terms of %of military might the trade off might not have been positive or even for the resistance. But that honestly begs the question what good are those bombers even? Poe had to knock out that last cannon or the attack couldn't happen like at all? How useless must those bombers be in any other scenario ever. This was their only chance, prisitne conditions, to put those bombers to use. Poe knocked out ALL the cannons and the FO was late to launch their fighters. I doubt calling those slow moving bombers back would've saved any time compared to the bombers making their bombing run because the resistance tdidn't have to wait for them as they all went down. The strength of those bombers was their payload, and they were put to good use Imo. I can't imagine another scenario that could've gone better for them.

I mean, this was a thread that started with 'hey look a video with ships!' The immediate response was negative and condescending. Attempts to ignore that attitude to talk about the ships were met with 'those ships look stupid' and continued arguing arguing about TLJ. I'm not saying you in particular are guilty of this. It's just become the inevitable pattern of daring to like TLJ on this forum. /shrug

I see. I really don't mind if someone liked TLJ. That's their opinion and they're welcome to it.

I think the ship design for the Resistance ships is fine. Its familiar enough while being new. It's the FO ship designs that are uninspired to me. (And this goes back to TFA) I can't conceive of a reason why the Resurgence class SD's have all those openings exposing their inner structure to open space. Did the FO forget the Rebels achieved their greatest victories on the backbone of their fighter craft? Why make more openings.... SMH

46 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

Let's take the bombing scene. I get what people are saying in terms of %of military might the trade off might not have been positive or even for the resistance. But that honestly begs the question what good are those bombers even? Poe had to knock out that last cannon or the attack couldn't happen like at all? How useless must those bombers be in any other scenario ever. This was their only chance, prisitne conditions, to put those bombers to use. Poe knocked out ALL the cannons and the FO was late to launch their fighters. I doubt calling those slow moving bombers back would've saved any time compared to the bombers making their bombing run because the resistance tdidn't have to wait for them as they all went down. The strength of those bombers was their payload, and they were put to good use Imo. I can't imagine another scenario that could've gone better for them.

That's making a lot of assumptions - not least of which that the Mandator IV-class was something the bombers would normally have been expected to engage at all. They may well have been primarily ground-attack bombers for performing hit-and-run raids against bases in an atmosphere, where the airblast effects of their weapons provides a much greater effect and allows for an enormous impact area. Nevermind there being potentially a good, non-combat, reason for their too-close formation (needed for co-ordinated hyper jump out?) which allowed the First Order to effectively take out the entire squadron with one lucky hit.

We , the audience, just don't know. Nor do we need to have those specific details, because we were already told what we needed to understand this situation.

That is... that Poe Dameron - the less experienced pilot - thought it was a good idea to push that attack with those conditions and available resources and reserves; while General Leia - a more experienced combat veteran with a vastly clearer understanding of the big picture - strongly felt it was not a good idea.

9 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Btw: how come the Raddus + those frigates had a couple hundred crew? After evacuating the base?

Because Rian Johnson gave no craps about plausibility. He very easily could have never specified a number of remaining Resistance personnel in the film. He could have left it wonderfully unknown. But, for no reason, he pulls out some insanely small number of people.

According to RJ, the Resistance was smaller than most of our graduating classes. The Resistance, which had a mega-warship, a nebulon-next-gen, and a corvette along with all the support crew... was staffed by a few hundred people. Bear in mind that in the "old lore" one Nebulon-B, for instance, had a crew of about 800. Heck, a real life aircraft carrier, which is a small fraction of the size of the Raddus , has a crew around 6,000...


So the 'couple hundred' was just a pointless figure pulled out of nowhere that spits in the face of established Star Wars lore while adding nothing to the story yet highlighting the complete implausibility of the situation that is being presented .... basically sums up TLJ as a whole.

4 hours ago, xanderf said:

while General Leia - a more experienced combat veteran with a vastly clearer understanding of the big picture - strongly felt it was not a good idea.

I mean, to be fair, she probably didn't anticipate that Poe could single-handedly take out every single surface gun on the dorsal side of a ship with about as much surface area as 3,400 NFL Football fields. She was not factoring in the sheer power creep of the heroes in the new films. I'm sure, after herself surviving the explosive decompression of a bridge and being hurtled hundreds of meters into deep space amidst a storm of shrapnel and surviving, she'll adjust all future tactical decisions to correctly take into account the power creep.

6 hours ago, xanderf said:

That's making a lot of assumptions - not least of which that the Mandator IV-class was something the bombers would normally have been expected to engage at all. They may well have been primarily ground-attack bombers for performing hit-and-run raids against bases in an atmosphere, where the airblast effects of their weapons provides a much greater effect and allows for an enormous impact area. Nevermind there being potentially a good, non-combat, reason for their too-close formation (needed for co-ordinated hyper jump out?) which allowed the First Order to effectively take out the entire squadron with one lucky hit.

We , the audience, just don't know. Nor do we need to have those specific details, because we were already told what we needed to understand this situation.

That is... that Poe Dameron - the less experienced pilot - thought it was a good idea to push that attack with those conditions and available resources and reserves; while General Leia - a more experienced combat veteran with a vastly clearer understanding of the big picture - strongly felt it was not a good idea.

We aren't utterly clueless as viewers. We CAN make educated guesses as to how the fictitious physics of this universe operate based on our viewership throughout numerous canonical movies and shows on top of what the subject source material tells us explicitly lays out for us .

The popular response to "Why not Y-Wings?" is the Resistance bombers have the payload necessary to take out such a large target Y-wings or more nimble bombers lacked. Hence why I brought up the pay load. We don't need to make a lot of assumptions, nor did I. The narration of the movie tells us the bombers needed the cannons knocked out in order to carry out their task. (Seems pretty obsolete if you can't ever attack something that has point defense). That's not an assumption, that's what we're told.

I'm curious as to what assumptions exactly you think I've made in my analysis.

Anyhow I don't want to derail the topic. What does everyone else think of the ships? The Mon-Cal Cruiser seemed Mon-Cal cruiserey enough for me. Good oval shape with bumps and all.

6 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

We aren't utterly clueless as viewers.

As I just stated - we're really not. The movie tells us exactly who was right and who wasn't. You just didn't like the answer, so you pretended not to understand it.

The hot shot n00b pilot that nearly got the entire Resistance wiped out in the second half of the movie thought this initial attack in the opening act was a good idea.

The extremely experienced and highly skilled leader of the Resistance, who we've seen successfully leading a fight against oppression since before the pilot's parents were born, thought it was a bad idea. Oh, also, who is the pilot's superior officer.

Q.E.D. - it was a bad idea. You (the audience) don't have to know all the reasons why it was a bad idea, because that doesn't matter. You've been told very clearly by people who know that it's a bad idea, so...it's a bad idea.

11 minutes ago, xanderf said:

As I just stated - we're really not. The movie tells us exactly who was right and who wasn't. You just didn't like the answer, so you pretended not to understand it.

The hot shot n00b pilot that nearly got the entire Resistance wiped out in the second half of the movie thought this initial attack in the opening act was a good idea.

The extremely experienced and highly skilled leader of the Resistance, who we've seen successfully leading a fight against oppression since before the pilot's parents were born, thought it was a bad idea. Oh, also, who is the pilot's superior officer.

Q.E.D. - it was a bad idea. You (the audience) don't have to know all the reasons why it was a bad idea, because that doesn't matter. You've been told very clearly by people who know that it's a bad idea, so...it's a bad idea.

Ok are we still on this? You're conveniently ignoring other points of the movie to suit your argument. Leia ordered the bomber attack no? Only after the base was evacuated did she recall the bombers as she prioritized flight over fight. That doesn't mean we're misinterpreting the capacity of the bombers by default. Furthermore as to your point of Leia "being experienced and therefore right", that's a basic fallacy, an argument from authority. We have not seen Leia as an "extremely experienced and highly skilled military leader." She was a princess, and sure, she was a badass. In the newer movies she takes on more of a militarized leadership roll, but again we don't know how experienced she is in that roll. You're projecting your own assumptions there my friend. Lastly even if all that is true, Leia being experienced skilled force sensitive military mastermind rivaling Thrawn what have you, she is not infallible. She can be wrong.

And you(or the movie) shouldn't insult the audience's intelligence when we can deduce something isn't quite right and maybe a plot hole exists and insist "no you're just dumb, movie said lady was smart, hot shot pilot was dumb."

I'm done with this quibbling if you are. The topic was on the new resistance fleet. What'd you think of the designs?

On 11/19/2018 at 12:56 AM, Forresto said:

@AllWingsStandyingBy The Last Jedi never states the Resistance was wiped out.

Otherwise who was Leia calling for on Crait?

She was calling former Republic worlds and sympathisers to come and join them, not other active Resistance cells. No one came.

1 hour ago, Belisarius09 said:

I'm done with this quibbling if you are. The topic was on the new resistance fleet. What'd you think of the designs?

Like all things sequel: the visuals are STUNNING!

Taking about the fleet of the Resistance is a bit difficult, first we don't have so many sources and the two movies about them just cover some days/weeks. And don't forget it's a SF movie, they don't care so much about reality, that's why logistics and finances rarely matter (just if it's a plot device). If for the plot the Resistance needs more ships in the next movie, they'll get them by some means. In TLJ I also thought why the FO didn't immediately lauch fighters after arriving near the Resistance base, shouldn't that be a standard procedure? Or why didn't they detect those slow bombers before? Well, because if TLJ would be realistic we would see something more like "Saving Private Ryan". Do I mind? Yes, a bit, sometimes the FO officers are shown as really evil... ****** idiots. Anyway, I liked the space combat and I'm sure the Mandator would look awesome in Armada, just no idea how much dice you could roll with those autocannons!