@Truthiness I don't have access rights for the google docs link you posted, as is probably the case for everyone else here...

2 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

@Truthiness I don't have access rights for the google docs link you posted, as is probably the case for everyone else here...

Well aren't I a moron...one sec...

Fixed.

@Truthiness Hmm, that's interesting. I could offer some thoughts on the squadrons as I have recently pondered about the topic walking the dog.

You pretty much reinterpreted grit and counter. Were counter represented quick and nimble fighters punishing everyone who dogfights them previously, you attributed it to turrets. And grit, the rule which often was given to squadrons which have thick enough armor and/or turrets and thus have other methods to deal with attacks than locking themselves into dogfights, you gave to fast and lightly armored A-Wing. That's quite an interesting choice.

The bombers I would definitely give grit. They don't seem to care about enemy squadrons and just go their way in TLJ. Also, they are slow enough as it is. Additionally I would probably reduce their anti ship pool to 0 and create them a new keyword like this one: Payload 3 ( When attacking a ship in base contact add 3 black dice to your attack pool ). It would fit the fact that the starfortress drops bombs instead of firing torpedoes and would make it more of a skillshot weapon.

Given that the A-Wings in the mov ies are deployed to escort the bombers it might be fitting to swap grit for escort and maybe, like the rebel version, give them counter.

The TIE/sf seems to be optimized for independent operations. This compels me to attribute them grit too, justified by the turret. Maybe there could be a keyword introduced to also give them built in boosted comms? The idea is that they can attack both ships and squadrons alone but have no synergy with other fighters for larger squadron groups. A unique squadron with rogue might be appropriate here.

Finally both factions have lots of shuttles. The Epsilon is fully packed with Ewar stuff and the evacuation shuttles have these sensor cloaking things, which could be interpreted as Ewar stuff, so they seem to be good fit for Intel. This leaves the shuttle Finn and Rose steal and the B-Wing based transport as possible sources of relay.

I hope you find these suggestions to be useful.

2 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

@Truthiness Hmm, that's interesting. I could offer some thoughts on the squadrons as I have recently pondered about the topic walking the dog.

You pretty much reinterpreted grit and counter. Were counter represented quick and nimble fighters punishing everyone who dogfights them previously, you attributed it to turrets. And grit, the rule which often was given to squadrons which have thick enough armor and/or turrets and thus have other methods to deal with attacks than locking themselves into dogfights, you gave to fast and lightly armored A-Wing. That's quite an interesting choice.

You're forgetting YT-1300s and Decimators, which are most certainly is not agile ships. I've always seen Counter 1 as the default "turret ship" as a result. I will agree that Grit has typically been given to bulky, hard to stop squadrons. In practice, it makes them quite slippery, so it felt right for the A-Wings.

2 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

@Truthiness (can't seem to delete the @ thing on mobile...) The bombers I would definitely give grit. They don't seem to care about enemy squadrons and just go their way in TLJ. Also, they are slow enough as it is. Additionally I would probably reduce their anti ship pool to 0 and create them a new keyword like this one: Payload 3 ( When attacking a ship in base contact add 3 black dice to your attack pool ). It would fit the fact that the starfortress drops bombs instead of firing torpedoes and would make it more of a skillshot weapon.

I will agree that the bombers deserve the Grit keyword from a narrative standpoint, but I wanted to avoid overloading them with keywords. From a balance standpoint, I felt Grit might be a bit much given their toughness and three bomber dice. They should need to be escorted in or risk being tied down. Again, that's a gameplay call rather than a narrative call.

2 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

@Truthiness

The TIE/sf seems to be optimized for independent operations. This compels me to attribute them grit too, justified by the turret. Maybe there could be a keyword introduced to also give them built in boosted comms? The idea is that they can attack both ships and squadrons alone but have no synergy with other fighters for larger squadron groups. A unique squadron with rogue might be appropriate here.

I like the idea of having Rogue in there in general. That would fill a good niche that I think I'm currently lacking with the TIE/SF. Looking at them again, I kind of just made them generic all arounders. I think I'd need to take something away as a result.

Grit for the Bombers was A gameplay consideration for me too. The idea was that if you would take the keyword I suggested it would be to hit anything at speed 2. Even without it they can't even catch up with a Victory so making them easily stoppable by squadrons would make them pretty useless.

On 11/20/2018 at 1:51 PM, Astrodar said:

Perhaps we should realize that these are movies that people made up.

People use this comeback all the time, but I just don't understand it.

STAR WARS ISN'T REAL?!?! IT DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN A LONG TIME AGO, IN A GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY??!? OMG!!! MIND SHATTERED!


Of course Star Wars is all made up, as is every other work of fiction. I don't want my fictional built-worlds to be hyper-realistic, I want them to be consistent and internally coherent. I don't care how fantastical and whimsical and unrealistic they are, as long as they are consistent within the built world and the universe adheres to some semblance of rules and physical laws that makes the narrative work .

Radically changing how hyperspace works after 40 years of it working differently is a problem with the storytelling, even if... and bear with me... hyperspace isn't real.

I mean, it'd be like having Chewbacca shoot lasers out of his eyes in TFA to fry some stormtrooper at Maz's castle, only to have Finn go: "WHOA! WHAT WAS THAT!?" and then Han to grin and retort "What... you didn't know woookiees could do that?" as the audience forces a chuckle over their cringe. Sure, Star Wars is pretend space opera, and wookiees aren't real and we know nothing of their fictious biology, but having a wookie do that after six films, several television episodes, and other appearances where they never did that, even when it would have made sense to do so, is just plain lazy and disrespectful storytelling that takes a steaming dump on the built world.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Peo  ple use this comeback all the time, but I just don't understand it. 

I'll reference the slight clarification I made a bit later on:

On 11/20/2018 at 2:55 PM, Astrodar said:

Back to the main point, Star Wars isn't real. It's all made up. Sometimes things will be wonky and wrong. Plot holes will exist. That is the nature of entertainment.

Sure, yes... consistency is to be desired. But that is hard to achieve across 40 years of material worked on by numerous people, all of whom have different ideas and visions of how it works.

I realize that all normally functioning humans realize that Star Wars is not real. I just don't think all of them realize that there are better hills to die on than inconsistency in a fictional world.

But don't take my word for it. Keep fighting the good fight.

33 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

all normally functioning humans realize that Star Wars is not real

I think some of you all might have a bit too much of your identity wrapped up in a scifi genre. I love star wars too. But even re-watching the OT movies now, it'll never hold a candle to watching them every day with my brother when we were 6 or 8 and pretending our legos were Xwings and TIE fighters. That magic's long gone.

We used to play TIE Fighter on the PC for hours. Too complex for one kid, so one of us used the joystick and the other did keyboard controls. Is the game still fun? Kinda? It's pretty dated now. But those days were magic.

So some of the new movies aren't as amazing as you remember the old ones being. I don't think the old ones were quite as good as you remember. Just that in the moment when you're young, it held a special place for you.

I just don't get the outrage over it. It feels so contrived.

Unrelated, ever notice how everyone's convinced that kids' movies/TV got bad at roughly the same time they stopped being children?

7 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

I think some of you all might have a bit too much of your identity wrapped up in a scifi genre. I love star wars too. But even re-watching the OT movies now, it'll never hold a candle to watching them every day with my brother when we were 6 or 8 and pretending our legos were Xwings and TIE fighters. That magic's long gone.

We used to play TIE Fighter on the PC for hours. Too complex for one kid, so one of us used the joystick and the other did keyboard controls. Is the game still fun? Kinda? It's pretty dated now. But those days were magic.

 So some of the new movies aren't as amazing as you remember the old ones being. I don't think the old ones were quite as good as you remember. Just that in the moment when you're young, it held a special place for you.

 I just don't get the outrage over it. It feels so contrived.



Unrelated, ever notice how everyone's convinced that kids' movies/TV got bad at roughly the same time they stopped being children?

Not really, no.

TLJ sucks big time. It's in the same league as the Phantom Menace.

The other kids' stuff doing just fine. Not a HUGE fan of Rebels, but Clone Wars I enjoy enough to watch it again.

12 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

So some of the new movies aren't as amazing as you remember the old ones being. I don't think the old ones were quite as good as you remember. Just that in the moment when you're young, it held a special place for you.

I just don't get the outrage over it. It feels so contrived.

Unrelated, ever notice how everyone's convinced that kids' movies/TV got bad at roughly the same time they stopped being children?

I think, you're right, that nobody should be too earnest about entertainment. But there are differences in quality not depending on the age of the audience.

I showed the OT to my daughter when she was about 8 years and she loved the films. She asked me every now and then to see the ST. Now she's 10 and a few month ago I showed her Episode 1 which happened to be in TV. But she didn't like it too much. She said it was boring.

Maybe she isn't a child anymore? Or Episode 1 isn't at the height of OT, at least in her eyes?

23 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

I think some of you all might have a bit too much of your identity wrapped up in a scifi genre. I love star wars too. But even re-watching the OT movies now, it'll never hold a candle to watching them every day with my brother when we were 6 or 8 and pretending our legos were Xwings and TIE fighters. That magic's long gone.

We used to play TIE Fighter on the PC for hours. Too complex for one kid, so one of us used the joystick and the other did keyboard controls. Is the game still fun? Kinda? It's pretty dated now. But those days were magic.

So some of the new movies aren't as amazing as you remember the old ones being. I don't think the old ones were quite as good as you remember. Just that in the moment when you're young, it held a special place for you.

I just don't get the outrage over it. It feels so contrived.

Unrelated, ever notice how everyone's convinced that kids' movies/TV got bad at roughly the same time they stopped being children?

You just don't love Star Wars as much as me! I bet you don't even know Biggs's blood type and only own like 3 Han Solo love pillows! My Star Wars slash Fedora enthusiast club will hear of this!!!

I'm with you though.

32 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

, but Clone Wars I enjoy enough to watch it again.

I tried... terrible!

I don't mean talking about quality but I got exhausted after the third clownie droid. It was so close to parody what it is not intended to be. I was told that becomes better later. Maybe when I get some kids...

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

Star Wars slash Fedora enthusiast club

I can only get behind this if Muppets are also involved.

23 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

I can only get behind this if Muppets are also involved.

"Hi ho, Kermit the MRA reporting here...."

2 hours ago, duck_bird said:

I just don't get the outrage over it. It feels so contrived.

It is.

The people who have legitimate complaints about TLJ are vastly outspoken by the hoards of mouth-breathing, barely conscious, pond scum that can't register original thoughts and spew some half-baked nonsense they saw on youtube everywhere.

I even find the hate from those who have legitimate complaints about TLJ to be a little forced.

I can't tell you how many times one of those legit complaints has been explained, well within the confines of the precious "lore" and they either ignore it and continue moaning or get even angrier because it's not what they wanted.

People out here angry to be angry.

11 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

People use this comeback all the time, but I just don't understand it.

STAR WARS ISN'T REAL?!?! IT DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN A LONG TIME AGO, IN A GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY??!? OMG!!! MIND SHATTERED!


Of course Star Wars is all made up, as is every other work of fiction. I don't want my fictional built-worlds to be hyper-realistic, I want them to be consistent and internally coherent. I don't care how fantastical and whimsical and unrealistic they are, as long as they are consistent within the built world and the universe adheres to some semblance of rules and physical laws that makes the narrative work .

Radically changing how hyperspace works after 40 years of it working differently is a problem with the storytelling, even if... and bear with me... hyperspace isn't real.

I mean, it'd be like having Chewbacca shoot lasers out of his eyes in TFA to fry some stormtrooper at Maz's castle, only to have Finn go: "WHOA! WHAT WAS THAT!?" and then Han to grin and retort "What... you didn't know woookiees could do that?" as the audience forces a chuckle over their cringe. Sure, Star Wars is pretend space opera, and wookiees aren't real and we know nothing of their fictious biology, but having a wookie do that after six films, several television episodes, and other appearances where they never did that, even when it would have made sense to do so, is just plain lazy and disrespectful storytelling that takes a steaming dump on the built world.

So much this ! Legolas accomplishes fantastical feats and Lord Sauron lives w/o a body and there's an evil magic ring. We get that its fantasy and isn't real. but WITHIN the lore/physics of that world we still expect certain truths to be maintained, certain physics etc. If Legolas started shooting lasers out of his eyes it would certainly give us pause.

On top of that, I won't ever get people admonishing other people for being passionate about something. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about star wars. ****, we're all posting on a forum dedicated to little plastic ship models of star wars ships. So the wag the finger argument seems so out of place to me.

1 hour ago, Belisarius09 said:

So much this ! Legolas accomplishes fantastical feats and Lord Sauron lives w/o a body and there's an evil magic ring. We get that its fantasy and isn't real. but WITHIN the lore/physics of that world we still expect certain truths to be maintained, certain physics etc. If Legolas started shooting lasers out of his eyes it would certainly give us pause.

On top of that, I won't ever get people admonishing other people for being passionate about something. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about star wars. ****, we're all posting on a forum dedicated to little plastic ship models of star wars ships. So the wag the finger argument seems so out of place to me. 

I think the "wag the finger" argument has to come out when people stop being passionate and start being p *** ionate.

5 hours ago, Belisarius09 said:

So much this ! Legolas accomplishes fantastical feats and Lord Sauron lives w/o a body and there's an evil magic ring. We get that its fantasy and isn't real. but WITHIN the lore/physics of that world we still expect certain truths to be maintained, certain physics etc. If Legolas started shooting lasers out of his eyes it would certainly give us pause.

Wait! He doesn't? I thought that was the reason why he is so accurate. Some kind of laser designator system in-built in his non-human eyes. Otherwise it has no sense to me.

🤣