Entirely canonical to boot.

Wow. And they were whining about the loss of a couple of bombers in TLJ.

So basically all the losses were irrelevant... And they scored a massive win vs the First Order.

Lol.

30 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Wow. And they were whining about the loss of a couple of bombers in TLJ.

So basically all the losses were irrelevant... And they scored a massive win vs the First Order.

Lol.

To be fair, the loss of that StarFortress squadron may or may not be proportional to the loss of the Fulminatrix. If the First Order has a dozen more Mandator-IVs but that was one fifth of the Resistance's bombing capability, Leia was right to be mad.

42 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

To be fair, the loss of that StarFortress squadron may or may not be proportional to the loss of the Fulminatrix. If the First Order has a dozen more Mandator-IVs but that was one fifth of the Resistance's bombing capability, Leia was right to be mad.

That might be too logical for some.

37 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

To be fair, the loss of that StarFortress squadron may or may not be proportional to the loss of the Fulminatrix. If the First Order has a dozen more Mandator-IVs but that was one fifth of the Resistance's bombing capability, Leia was right to be mad.

The First Order, just from the destruction of the Fulminatrix, suffered 215,000 casaulties to a number of 5-man bombers. In combat, you have to accept that you will lose people. Considering their heroic actions saved the rest of the Resistance, i'd still call that a victory.

7 minutes ago, idiewell said:

The First Order, just from the destruction of the Fulminatrix, suffered 215,000 casaulties to a number of 5-man bombers. In combat, you have to accept that you will lose people. Considering their heroic actions saved the rest of the Resistance, i'd still call that a victory.

Did they save the Resistance though? I was under the impression the only reason the cruiser was still around was because the bombers hadn't come back yet. The issue isn't whether they made a good trade in a vacuum; it's about what an asset means to the First Order, and what an asset means to the Resistance. If every Rebel soldier had killed 10 stormtroopers before dying, the Rebellion would probably still lose. A dreadnought can be evaded (and they'll still need to be evasive, the destruction of one dreadnought doesn't change that,) but the Resistance might really have needed those bombers for hit and run attacks, surgical strikes, relief efforts... Most wars aren't just determined by who blows up the most stuff.

The resistance was caught in the process of evacuating their not-so-secret base, outnumbered and staring down the huge barrels of a fleet-killing weapon. Yes, Leia ordered an evacuation, but we have no way of knowing if it would have been successful.

They certainly imply later that the firepower would have been adequate of dealing with the Resistance, when they showed the Dreadnought targeting the Raddus. If the Fulminatrix had been part of the First Order fleet after they tracked them through hyperspace, the Resistance, i feel, would have been utterly destroyed.

So yep, i consider them heroes of the Resistance.

That said however, the less said about TLJ, the better 😀

So, unsurprisingly it took Disney less than a year to retcon The Last Jedi 's absurd claims that the entire Resistance was those three ships in the film and that the only survivors of the Resistance fit onto a single YT-1300 freighter. Makes sense, as that was an impossible corner than RJ had painted JJ into it.

@AllWingsStandyingBy The Last Jedi never states the Resistance was wiped out.

Otherwise who was Leia calling for on Crait?

Who were Shriv and Versio going to meet with at the end of the tie in story in Battlefront 2 released before TLJ?

Where was Snap Wexly?

There’s clearly other cells. The New Republic Navy hasn’t been completely obliterated. There are pirates and criminal syndicates.

The Resistance we see in TLJ are the central command so them getting obliterated would be devastating to any galactic wide resistance effort. That is the only implication the film makes.

Looks good. Can't wait for the supporting Armada releases. I loved the style of the Free Virgilia Bunkbuster from the second I first saw it. If nine gives us a true fleet battle, hopefully that lights a fire under FFG.

9 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Looks good. Can't wait for the supporting Armada releases. I loved the style of the Free Virgilia Bunkbuster from the second I first saw it. If nine gives us a true fleet battle, hopefully that lights a fire under FFG.

I'm super into all the Resistance ships. Canon MC90s or Starhawks would be super dope too.

Especially since we're soon to have the framework to support larger ships (eg Raddus/Resurgents).

3 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

but the Resistance might really have needed those bombers   for hit and run attacks, surgical strikes, relief efforts... Most wars aren't just determined by who blows up the most stuff.

You mean hit and crawl … right?

4 hours ago, Forresto said:

@AllWingsStandyingBy The Last Jedi never states the Resistance was wiped out.

Otherwise who was Leia calling for on Crait?

Who were Shriv and Versio going to meet with at the end of the tie in story in Battlefront 2 released before TLJ?

Where was Snap Wexly?

There’s clearly other cells. The New Republic Navy hasn’t been completely obliterated. There are pirates and criminal syndicates.

The Resistance we see in TLJ are the central command so them getting obliterated would be devastating to any galactic wide resistance effort. That is the only implication the film makes.

Not only that, but what was Maz up to? I get a feeling that its another one of those points where it wasn't really explained in the movie, but this was a galaxy wide invasion by the FO. The other Resistance Cells were... (pardon my Rogue One pun) you know, resisting . Not only that, but these ships shown could be old Rebels who are coming back, it could be ex-imperials siding with surviving Republic forces because while the FO is technically the child of the Empire, the New Republic wasn't treating them poorly. There are dozens of explanations to this. ****, even at the end of TLJ we see the kids talking about Luke Skywalker. If someone told me the Jedi were back to fight the FO, I would be all for that. We see in the Twilight Company novel that rebel recruits were often calling themselves names of famous Rebel leaders.

People look for the easiest ways to dislike something, and refuse to accept any other idea.

7 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

To be fair, the loss of that StarFortress squadron may or may not be proportional to the loss of the Fulminatrix. If the First Order has a dozen more Mandator-IVs but that was one fifth of the Resistance's bombing capability, Leia was right to be mad.

Why?

Do they wage war without losses, against a numerically and technologically superior enemy?

Again lol.

7 hours ago, idiewell said:

The First Order, just from the destruction of the Fulminatrix, suffered 215,000 casaulties to a number of 5-man bombers. In combat, you have to accept that you will lose people. Considering their heroic actions saved the rest of the Resistance, i'd still call that a victory.

A very big one indeed!

39 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Why?

Do they wage war without losses, against a numerically and technologically superior enemy?

Again lol.

No, losses will be taken. But the fewer losses you can afford to take, the more you need to pick targets that actually matter . We don’t know that dreadnought truly mattered, just that Poe thought it did (and Leia, his more experienced and informed superior, the person who actually dictates their overall strategy, didn’t think it was worth it.) Poe probably didn’t expect to lose the whole squadron of bombers. If those bombers had hit 10 major FO soft targets later instead of trading for the Fulminatrix immediately , that could have proven far more effective. Sometimes trading well isn’t a feasible way to overcome a disadvantage. In that case, don’t make blowing up the entire First Order fleet your priority; look for a different win condition. And every time you take losses that don’t help your goal? That’s a waste.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

No, losses will be taken. But the fewer losses you can afford to take, the more you need to pick targets that actually matter . We don’t know that dreadnought truly mattered, just that Poe thought it did (and Leia, his more experienced and informed superior, the person who actually dictates their overall strategy, didn’t think it was worth it.) Poe probably didn’t expect to lose the whole squadron of bombers. If those bombers had hit 10 major FO soft targets later instead of trading for the Fulminatrix immediately , that could have proven far more effective. Sometimes trading well isn’t a feasible way to overcome a disadvantage. In that case, don’t make blowing up the entire First Order fleet your priority; look for a different win condition. And every time you take losses that don’t help your goal? That’s a waste.

This isn't how war works. You don't have this perfect understanding of what's going down in the future, what matters and not, what goes on inside you enemies' heads.

But if you have a powerful fleet assaulting your base, while the ragged remnants of the Resistance tries to flee, then surely expending a single squadron of bombers to kill a powerful battleship is worthwhile. That's not a waste.

What follows after is a waste and worse. Until magic hypertorpedo happens.

Anyway. Never going to agree. Let's go look for the missing droids instead.

7 hours ago, Forresto said:

@AllWingsStandyingBy The Last Jedi never states the Resistance was wiped out.

Otherwise who was Leia calling for on Crait?

The film is pretty explicit in saying that the "Resistance" is nearly wiped out.

They even say that Leia is calling for "friends" or anyone who might come aid them, and then they note that no one will answer their call.

This absolutely is not how you would refer to attempts to reach your allies or compatriots . They aren't "friends," or "sympathetic ears," they are your sworn brothers-in-arms, they are part of your organization, and they are under your direct ********* command. And they would come to your aid, or die trying. Or, at the very least, they would with heavy hearts salute your sacrifice as they note the tactical or practical reasons why they cannot come aid you... they would not simply refuse to pick up the phone.


Where was Snap? Well, a reasonable explanation is that he (and Jess and friends) either died in a T70 fighting the dreadnaught, died in a T70 when Kylo destroyed the hangar, or died in an escape pod that got shot down on the way to Crait. Bear in mind that we didn't see Nien Nunb throughout the entire film, until we catch in in the background of Poe's escape pod and then again in the background on the Falcon . And Nien's easy to include, because he was one of the three rubber suits in Resistance gear that came over in the box of props from TFA. Given that the film gave us about a three-second acknowledgment that Admiral Ackbar just died, I wouldn't expect anything more for nobodies like Snap or Jess. Of course, the practical answer is that the actor who plays Snap is a personal friend of JJ Abrams (as was the actor who played Admiral Statura in TFA). But, since RJ was making this film on a tight time table and making it his way, he's not going to waste time or resources hunting down actors who are friends of JJ to reprise their incredibly minor roles from TFA.


Now, that said, since JJ has come back to the helm of TFA, I'm sure he'll bring Grunberg and Leung back to reprise their roles as Snap and Statura, because why wouldn't he? But it's not like there was any plan for them to survive and be reprised in Episode 9, because Disney and JJ and RJ have all repeatedly said that there's been no unifying story points between the episodes, and it wasn't even clear JJ would be doing Episode 9 until well until Episode's 8 production. And of course Disney and JJ are going to say that there were lots of other Resistance Cells and ships out there that will come to the rescue in Episode 9, but that was very clearly not at all the picture and situation that RJ was trying to paint with his tale... which is why I call it a ' retcon .'

29 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

This isn't how war works. You don't have this perfect understanding of what's going down in the future, what matters and not, what goes on inside you enemies' heads.

Unless your Thrawn, the King of Mary Sues

I really shouldn't expect any better from star wars fans in a thread with "TLJ" in it.

[MUH CHILDHOOD INTENSIFIES]

15 hours ago, idiewell said:

The First Order, just from the destruction of the Fulminatrix, suffered 215,000 casaulties to a number of 5-man bombers. In combat, you have to accept that you will lose people. Considering their heroic actions saved the rest of the Resistance, i'd still call that a victory.

"we were wiped out, but more people on the enemy side died even though they have 95% of their forces remaining now versus our 0% , so we won by idiewell's standards."

Join the resistance, you will die but your K/D ratio will be OFF THE CHAINS SON!

@AllWingsStandyingBy We know exactly were Snap, Jess and the rest of Black Squadron were. They were send to rally the resistances allies by Leia prior to evacuation and got caught up in the first orders galaxy wide invasion. They are fine though.

As for the fleet: give the people on the falcon, Black Squadron and zay n' shriv a few days to rally some of the factions defying the FO into a somewhat unified resistance and voilà you have your fleet. We really don't know how much time passed between the film and the ride.

And lastly: Whilst the bomber attack might have been a good tradeoff in absolute numbers it was a total disaster in relative ones. The FO probably lost a fraction of a percent of its military strength whilst the resistance lost a significant part (more around 10℅ I guess) of its own. Just looking at the absolutes tells very little of the situation in its entirety.

By this logic any attempt at resistance against a superior enemy is futile, and even the attack on the first death star was a total disaster.

Any direct confrontation against tactical targets is to be avoided in guerrilla warfare. The resistance would have to attack supply lines and infrastructure in an unpredictable way, whist avoiding high risk targets. They can't win in direct trade of losses.

The death star is a different thing, because of it's strategic effect. Just through it's existence it was about to wipe out the rebellion.

26 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

By this logic any attempt at resistance against a superior enemy is futile, and even the attack on the first death star was a total disaster.

I think the difference here is that the death star's destruction was necessary as it posed not only an immediate threat to the evacuation of Yavin, but also posed a long term threat to rebel recruitment. The destruction of the dreadnought however was not necessary to complete the evacuation, and didn't help to further recruitment or prevent recruitment loss. A thought to consider, had those bombers pulled back and made the jump with the Raddus, would they have been enough to tie up Kylo's squadron? The video makes it look like the bombers jump independent of a cruiser... In the end the survival of that squadron of bombers could have ment the survival of the fighters, and the resistance leadership...


These situations are not equal. I would almost say they're opposite.