3 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

bla blah blah blah blah

...I find it very interesting people like you are trying to defend such a stupid and inconsistent plot. Its one thing to like it for the shiny, but its another to come up with very weak arguments to justify it.

You think this is an argument? You don’t like thing. I get it. And I don’t care why you don’t like it. There is no argument here.

14 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

You think this is an argument? You don’t like thing. I get it. And I don’t care why you don’t like it. There is no argument here.

Hypocrite. You just gave an argument...

Premise 0: I like TLJ
Premise 1: You don't like TLJ.
Premise 2: I know you don't like TLJ.
Premise 3: If I like the TLJ and I know you don't like TLJ, then I would argue you if and only if I cared why you don't like it. [implied premise]
Premise 4: I do not care why you don't like TLJ.
Conclusion: Therefore, I will not argue with you.

7 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Conclusion: Therefore, I will not argue with you.

Glad we could agree on something, then!

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

He was so competent he targeted the stationary base with this mega-cannon, then sat there and watched as the Raddus eventually escaped while his cannon recharged.

He's every bit as much of a joke as Hux.

I was under the impression that he shot at the base first because he was explicitly told to. I'd have to re-watch the scene again but I think I remember Hux telling them to fire on the base then the ship. So it' still Hux's incompetence, candy just suffered due to chain of command. Though I might be remembering it wrong.

Sitting Arrangements for this Thanksgiving is going to be a real hassle.

Government of the Prequels you will sit on the right.

and as for those sitting on the left will be Disney's New Committee

4 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Sitting Arrangements for this Thanksgiving is going to be a real hassle.

Government of the Prequels you will sit on the right.

and as for those sitting on the left will be Disney's New Committee

What about those of us who don't really want to take sides, but would rather just help stir the pot?

3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

What about those of us who don't really want to take sides, but would rather just help stir the pot?

We're at the side table with the popcorn machine and coffee maker.

19 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Sitting Arrangements for this Thanksgiving is going to be a real hassle.

Government of the Prequels you will sit on the right.

and as for those sitting on the left will be Disney's New Committee

“You can’t have pineapple on your Episode 9!”

”I HAVE THE HIGH TABLE, ANAKIN!!!”

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

“You can’t have pineapple on your Episode 9!”

”I HAVE THE HIGH TABLE, ANAKIN!!!”

LOL. Best response ever.

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED TO FURTHER REPLIES.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

LOL. Best response ever.

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED TO FURTHER REPLIES.

Woof.

7 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Soyo?

HE DID IT!

HE SAID IT!

AHAHAH. OH MY GOD. I KNEW IT.

It's another one of those "These are the Reasons I hate other Star Wars fans" threads.

Here is how I view things, because I'm a fan and if I read all of your nonsense, you can read mine.

There are good things and bad things about every single one of the movies.
There are certainly modern* plot holes in them - BUT, and that is a giant red "but," 99.9% of all Movies ever made contain at least 1 Modern* plot hole (I'm not saying 100% because there may be that miraculous one film that does not, but I honestly doubt it.) The corollary being that there is a bizarre Modern* trend to identify anything as a plot hole - a plot hole is a problem with the story moving from A to B to C, or something that in some way directly contradicts the story in an earlier scene (an example would be something like the Cameras in Hotel Transylvania 2 - in the beginning they don't capture vampires, but later on they can totally use cellphone cameras - these two things work on the same principle and both are cameras - that's a real plot hole, still a fun movie but that did drive me nuts**). Making up stuff about "Why didn't the vampire monster bug have her meeting place in a place where there wouldn't be windows" is not a plot hole. It's a nit pick. Yes, there is a trend in the modern world to conflate loose ends or imagined scenarios as 'plot holes,' they are not, but people still do this. There is nothing story inconsistent with the Vampire Bug monster meeting in that specific room. Nothing. That's a nit-pick built off of an imagined scenario.

And let me conclude by saying, you are free to hate me too. It seems only natural for Star Wars fans to hate each other.

* Modern, yes, I'm being facetious and using modern plot hole to mean 'nit-pick.' I couldn't tell you what percentage of movies contain real honest plot-holes. There are lots (almost anything MST3K'd) but there are also lots of movies in which the plot works perfectly fine. Does this mean the plot is amazing? No. It just means that the story (or plot) follows from A to B to C smoothly, and without contradiction.
** Lets see who I piss off here.

1 hour ago, KryatDragon said:

It's another one of those "These are the Reasons I hate other Star Wars fans" threads.

Here is how I view things, because I'm a fan and if I read all of your nonsense, you can read mine.

There are good things and bad things about every single one of the movies.
There are certainly modern* plot holes in them - BUT, and that is a giant red "but," 99.9% of all Movies ever made contain at least 1 Modern* plot hole (I'm not saying 100% because there may be that miraculous one film that does not, but I honestly doubt it.) The corollary being that there is a bizarre Modern* trend to identify anything as a plot hole - a plot hole is a problem with the story moving from A to B to C, or something that in some way directly contradicts the story in an earlier scene (an example would be something like the Cameras in Hotel Transylvania 2 - in the beginning they don't capture vampires, but later on they can totally use cellphone cameras - these two things work on the same principle and both are cameras - that's a real plot hole, still a fun movie but that did drive me nuts**). Making up stuff about "Why didn't the vampire monster bug have her meeting place in a place where there wouldn't be windows" is not a plot hole. It's a nit pick. Yes, there is a trend in the modern world to conflate loose ends or imagined scenarios as 'plot holes,' they are not, but people still do this. There is nothing story inconsistent with the Vampire Bug monster meeting in that specific room. Nothing. That's a nit-pick built off of an imagined scenario.

And let me conclude by saying, you are free to hate me too. It seems only natural for Star Wars fans to hate each other.

* Modern, yes, I'm being facetious and using modern plot hole to mean 'nit-pick.' I couldn't tell you what percentage of movies contain real honest plot-holes. There are lots (almost anything MST3K'd) but there are also lots of movies in which the plot works perfectly fine. Does this mean the plot is amazing? No. It just means that the story (or plot) follows from A to B to C smoothly, and without contradiction.
** Lets see who I piss off here.

Thank you! "plot holes" is a convenient straw man by people who just want to be haters. Those people have likely never seen the likes of Birdemic, Troll 2, the Beast of Yucca Flats, Monster a Go-Go, The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies, or heaven forbid, MANOS the Hands of Fate! Now thats a bag of plot holes worth talking about. Years of Rifftrax and MST3K have taught me not only the proper way to make a film but to also sit back and enjoy properly made films. If we really want to talk plot holes how about we talk about how Luke trained with Yoda for what appears to be months and it appears to take days for Han and Leia to get to Cloud City. Thats bugged me for years. Or if it is days then Luke got about as much training as Rey did and accomplished just as much. Really even if there is a "plot hole" rarely do you notice it until afterwards and that is the often the master director putting you in the moment (like where does the cliff come from in Jurassic Park? Do I really care because that movie is amazing?)

41 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

Thank you! "plot holes" is a convenient straw man by people who just want to be haters. Those people have likely never seen the likes of Birdemic, Troll 2, the Beast of Yucca Flats, Monster a Go-Go, The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies, or heaven forbid, MANOS the Hands of Fate! Now thats a bag of plot holes worth talking about.

So... as long as your plotholes aren't the worst plotholes in filmmaking history, it's a free pass? What sort of race-to-the-bottom lack of standards is this?


"Ok, here's your term papers back class. Everyone got an A... except for you Timmy. You had the worst paper of the lot. Since everyone else's paper was better than Timmy's... you got an A! Great work, everyone!" 🤣


I think we can all agree that Troll 2 is a far worse movie than TLJ. But that doesn't mean TLJ is above reproach or complaint or disappointment. It just means films like Troll 2 get an F, while TLJ might get something like a D... still plenty of opportunity to note errors, mistakes, and room for improvement.

35 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

So... as long as your plotholes aren't the worst plotholes in filmmaking history, it's a free pass? What sort of race-to-the-bottom lack of standards is this?


"Ok, here's your term papers back class. Everyone got an A... except for you Timmy. You had the worst paper of the lot. Since everyone else's paper was better than Timmy's... you got an A! Great work, everyone!" 🤣


I think we can all agree that Troll 2 is a far worse movie than TLJ. But that doesn't mean TLJ is above reproach or complaint or disappointment. It just means films like Troll 2 get an F, while TLJ might get something like a D... still plenty of opportunity to note errors, mistakes, and room for improvement.

Theres a fair bit of distance between TLJ and Troll 2 to go from F to D. At best a B and worst a C. Theres still a lot of good in there and your bias is clearly showing on this!

My point is that seeing the worst of the worst gives you better perspective on not only movies themselves but also how HARD it is to make a film, even a big budget one. You are literally corralling hundreds of people with wildly different views and interpretations on something and hoping the end point will be cohesive and this is BEFORE you have your corporate overlords looking down and nit picking things or trying to boost sales. Its easy for the lay person to come in and say "well actually (pushes up glasses) this is the worst movie ever sir!" without actually knowing the process. No matter how big the movie or how well crafted it is there WILL be minor inconsistencies throughout a film, its simply the nature of the medium. You can't show everything to the audience without changing the pace or altering the tone of a scene. The talented director can do these things without us really noticing while the untalented director shows us EVERYTHING (ala Birdemic and the obsession with parking scenes, how will we know our characters went to the gas station? PARKING SCENE!!).

Edit:

Take a gander at this website for some more clarification, plot holes are a necessary evil for films and even the greatest director will use them.

http://screenprism.com/insights/article/do-plot-holes-matter

and really, im beginning to think at this stage of my life I WANT plot holes in my films. I want something that will have me scratching my head after the movie, really thinking about what I saw. Getting those wheels turning instead of watching yet another boring formulaic film that accomplishes nothing and I forget about it soon after. Why else would I still be thinking about movies like inception or the matrix if it wasn't for some of the goofy plot holes and inconsistencies?

35 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I think we can all agree that Troll 2 is a far worse movie than TLJ. But that doesn't mean TLJ is above reproach or complaint or disappointment. It just means films like Troll 2 get an F, while TLJ might get something like a D... still plenty of opportunity to note errors, mistakes, and room for improvement.


Except, and this is the really weird bit, from a purely movie making perspective, TLJ is clearly the best of the Star Wars movies. I'm not going to say how much you can or should have enjoyed it. But. It was a legitimately great movie that I can't even begin to understand why it gets the hate it does.

5 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

Except, and this is the really weird bit, from a purely movie making perspective, TLJ is clearly the best of the Star Wars movies. I'm not going to say how much you can or should have enjoyed it. But. It was a legitimately great movie that I can't even begin to understand why it gets the hate it does.

Im beginning to wonder if the TLJ hate happened in the movie (like people stopped and said NO I CANNOT ACCEPT THIS!) or did it foment after the film was done. Or was their view tainted by others who spread a negative review of a film before seeing it? (like how Solo is good and no one watched it). The whole concept of irrational fan hate is beginning to fascinate me in its phenomenon. I too suffer from this but in a different aspect. I greatly dislike the new MST3K, despite it garnering a new group of fans and I stick to the guys from Rifftrax. This is merely a matter of small issues, like the tone of jokes, the pace of riffing, and the fact that several of the characters lack distinctive voices. Do I bag on the new stuff? I do not, but I also do not watch them either despite having an otherwise stellar cast and quality writing.

30 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

Theres a fair bit of distance between TLJ and Troll 2 to go from F to D. At best a B and worst a C. Theres still a lot of good in there and your bias is clearly showing on this!

There's also a fair amount of distance between TLJ and Godfather, Jaws, Aliens, etc. ... does TLJ really deserve to be a B if those films are an A?

I mean, I'm assuming Troll 2 failed it's exam with like a 4% score, hence it's grade of F. Putting TLJ at a score of 60% is still a D, but still makes TLJ farther away from Troll 2 than whatever film(s) we think aced the exam with 100%. This might be a difference in the US Educational culture. In the US a 0% - 59% is usually an "F" failure, with like 60%-70% being like a D.

Are you sure it was my bias showing, given how you choose to interpret what I wrote as basically equating Troll2 and TLJ, despite them actually still being farther apart than TFA and Godfather, let's say? Or how you want to use the 'race to the bottom' awfulness of other films to push TLJ upward? Continuing to want to focus only on moving something farther away from the worst end of the spectrum seems like the potential bias?

13 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

Im beginning to wonder if the TLJ hate happened in the movie (like people stopped and said NO I CANNOT ACCEPT THIS!)

For your data collection purposes, this was basically me. I went into the theater as giddy and excited and as optimistic as I've gone into every new Star Wars movie. Minutes into the film I was already cringing with the "phone call humor" and the absurdity of Poe solo-ing every cannon off a mega warship in less than 60 seconds, the hair-pulling incompetence of the First Order that makes them feel more like Elmer Fudd than a dreadful threat, the baffling lack of world-building that noted the First Order had reconquered the Galaxy despite this clearly being like a few hours after TFA, and this was all in the first few minutes...

The rest of the film just piled onto my dislike pretty consistently right through until the end credits. Despite thinking that the Prequels were bad or that TFA was trying too hard to be mystifying, I was never unhappy during the films. But TLJ was different... it was like I wasn't watching a Star Wars movie, but some lazy attempt to be Marvel... in SPACE! By the end of the film I was eager to leave the theater and as I talked with my wife about our reactions to the film, I remember distinctly feeling like either I had finally outgrown Star Wars or Star Wars had outgrown me.

31 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

For your data collection purposes, this was basically me. I went into the theater as giddy and excited and as optimistic as I've gone into every new Star Wars movie. Minutes into the film I was already cringing with the "phone call humor" and the absurdity of Poe solo-ing every cannon off a mega warship in less than 60 seconds, the hair-pulling incompetence of the First Order that makes them feel more like Elmer Fudd than a dreadful threat, the baffling lack of world-building that noted the First Order had reconquered the Galaxy despite this clearly being like a few hours after TFA, and this was all in the first few minutes...

The rest of the film just piled onto my dislike pretty consistently right through until the end credits. Despite thinking that the Prequels were bad or that TFA was trying too hard to be mystifying, I was never unhappy during the films. But TLJ was different... it was like I wasn't watching a Star Wars movie, but some lazy attempt to be Marvel... in SPACE! By the end of the film I was eager to leave the theater and as I talked with my wife about our reactions to the film, I remember distinctly feeling like either I had finally outgrown Star Wars or Star Wars had outgrown me.

That helps, I've known many guys who got hung up on little things they attributed to some sort of offhand political issue (rwar! No girls allowed!) or something they were "told" was bad. I fully accept that view on it and I can certainly see why it put you off. Im a fan of setting, mood, and cinematography myself so issues like this don't always jar me as much because im trying to take in EVERYTHING the director wanted us to do. Unfortunately a lot of the explanation for how the First Order does its thing was left off screen to tie in novels and comics (which are actually really good btw!) instead of telling the audience even in a back hand way, like if Poe said something like "after they blasted Hosnian Prime they launched a hundred simultaneous raids and took over the galaxy!" which is pretty much what happened (plus they had been stacking dissatisfied Imperial systems secretly on the side) for the sake of exposition. I give the movie a much more solid ranking because 1. The cinematography and composition was amazing (Raddus going to hyperspace made the whole movie for me) 2. The take on Luke was interesting and original (im beginning to think he is an allegory for when fanboys grow up) 3. Space battles! 4. I love Poe Dameron. What else could a girl need?

As for your comment on outgrowing....a little column a and a little b? We all grow up and lose interest in things, its healthy to do so, and rediscovering our lost loves can sometimes be just as fun as when we were at our height of fandom. Much like the characters we love we must change with the times and adapt or we will become irrelevant and lost to history. I drifted to and from star wars for years ( I had a LOT of star wars stuff when I was a kid, back in the early 90s when it was harder to find that stuff) and I have once again full embraced it again and I'm having more fun than ever. I took a year off of Xwing and now im really enjoying myself more than I ever was back in 1.0. Try something new maybe. I have had a lot of fun delving into the dystopian monstrosity that is Warhammer 40k, or maybe try the cleverly written and ever fascinating world of Harry Dresden, or revisit past loves like Star trek or Harry Potter to remind yourself why you like certain things.

edit:

I can see where the phone call bit with Poe put you off too. I see Poe like lots of military types I've met before where they are loyal, caring, steadfast and also INSANELY stupid and reckless and only survives due to the fact that he is really really good at his job. Soloing the dreadnought is just another example at how stupid his plan was and why it basically got the entire fleet of fighters and bombers wiped out and was only successful due to his luck and sheer piloting skill (which makes you a poor leader, hence the later conflicts)

32 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

Im beginning to wonder if the TLJ hate happened in the movie (like people stopped and said NO I CANNOT ACCEPT THIS!) or did it foment after the film was done. Or was their view tainted by others who spread a negative review of a film before seeing it? (like how Solo is good and no one watched it). The whole concept of irrational fan hate is beginning to fascinate me in its phenomenon.

My guess is that it is a combination of both, and that The Last Jedi is definetly not a 'fan service' movie like Rogue One or Solo. It shatters expectations.

If I was to guess, I would think that the scene where Luke toss the lightsaber over his shoulder would be a good breaking point. You can either watch it and think 'Oh my God, what just happened!? That's not Luke! Luke would never do that! This movie is stupid!!!' or 'Oh my God, what just happened? Why would Luke toss the lightsaber over its shoulder? That's not the reaction I expected, I wonder why he did it'.

Then there is all those expectations, not accepting that the cast got reunited, or that everything should be explained and answered, like the origin of Snoke.

Then there is those that never accepted that Disney scrapped the old EU they were so attached to, so now they are looking for reasons to hate the new Disney EU.

Then there are those that didn't like the movie, but instead of stoping there, make it a personal crusade to make sure that if they don't like it, nobody should like it, somehow hoping that Disney will do a turn around and redo it if everyone hate it.

Then there are those that legitimatly didn't like it, because art is subjective and it is impossible to please everyone. They didn't like it, and then moved on...

What facinates me is those that not only hated it, but feel the need to continue to watch videos bashing the movie to cultivate their hate. They actually can't let it go and are working to hate it even more. To those I say... Let it go guys....

On 11/19/2018 at 4:09 AM, GuacCousteau said:

Okay, I'm gonna stop you right there.

You know that Han's trajectory in the old EU novels and in Solo is almost identical, right?

Solo swaps things a tiny bit by having Han get out from under the thumb of the gang that's owned him as an orphan after he meets the girl, rather than before. But otherwise Solo and the Han Solo trilogy are basically identical, save for the timespan.

In both cases Han starts out as a good guy given a bad start in life who wants to make more of himself as a pilot in the Imperial Navy. Yes, in Solo he only really does it to get a ticket off Corellia but he still goes along with it because he thinks he could get Qi'ra back as an Imperial officer. If anything, Han joining the Empire for more selfish reasons in Solo makes him more like the OT scoundrel than the novels.

In both cases Han is kicked out for refusing to conform to Imperial doctrine, and in both cases the circumstances of his leaving the Imperial service altogether coincide with his meeting Chewie. In both cases, Han shows sympathy for Chewie, frees him and forms an immediate bond. Again, Han in Solo is more selfish than the novels because there's an element of self preservation thrown in. In the novels, Han was just too darn nice to let Chewie get hurt.

In both cases, Han then takes to a life of crime but only to make money so that he and the apparent love of his life can have a future together.

In both cases, just when he thinks he and Qi'ra/Bria have finally broken free of all their obligations and can start a life together, she betrays him.

Both stories have Han start off as a good hearted, generous guy before seeing the reality of the Empire, an association with the criminal underworld and the betrayal of someone he loves harden him into the selfish cynic we see in the OT.

It's called character development. People aren't born criminals, life takes them there. The point of both stories was that deep down, Han had always been a good guy and just needed the right friends and environment to support that. Y'know, literally what his arc in the OT demonstrates. Solo and the novels examined it from the other side - if the OT showed that deep down he was always a good guy, then what happened to make him seem so callous at the start of ANH.

C'mon dude, you don't need to do that. Don't gatekeep. People can be fans of Star Wars without knowing every single detail about every character from the EU or background.

Seems especially harsh in this case given that Corellia and Coruscant are pretty similar names and even someone who does know the backstory could easily get them mixed up for a brief moment while typing.

This is a good take.

I didnt like solo. I didnt like the EU solo trilogy. I always felt that we saw hans origin story in ANH.

But these dudes hating on disney for not being like the old eu when it's almost identical just ain't worth listening to.

20 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

That helps, I've known many guys who got hung up on little things they attributed to some sort of offhand political issue (rwar! No girls allowed!) or something they were "told" was bad. I fully accept that view on it and I can certainly see why it put you off. Im a fan of setting, mood, and cinematography myself so issues like this don't always jar me as much because im trying to take in EVERYTHING the director wanted us to do. Unfortunately a lot of the explanation for how the First Order does its thing was left off screen to tie in novels and comics (which are actually really good btw!) instead of telling the audience even in a back hand way, like if Poe said something like "after they blasted Hosnian Prime they launched a hundred simultaneous raids and took over the galaxy!" which is pretty much what happened (plus they had been stacking dissatisfied Imperial systems secretly on the side) for the sake of exposition. I give the movie a much more solid ranking because 1. The cinematography and composition was amazing (Raddus going to hyperspace made the whole movie for me) 2. The take on Luke was interesting and original (im beginning to think he is an allegory for when fanboys grow up) 3. Space battles! 4. I love Poe Dameron. What else could a girl need?

As for your comment on outgrowing....a little column a and a little b? We all grow up and lose interest in things, its healthy to do so, and rediscovering our lost loves can sometimes be just as fun as when we were at our height of fandom. Much like the characters we love we must change with the times and adapt or we will become irrelevant and lost to history. I drifted to and from star wars for years ( I had a LOT of star wars stuff when I was a kid, back in the early 90s when it was harder to find that stuff) and I have once again full embraced it again and I'm having more fun than ever. I took a year off of Xwing and now im really enjoying myself more than I ever was back in 1.0. Try something new maybe. I have had a lot of fun delving into the dystopian monstrosity that is Warhammer 40k, or maybe try the cleverly written and ever fascinating world of Harry Dresden, or revisit past loves like Star trek or Harry Potter to remind yourself why you like certain things.

edit:

I can see where the phone call bit with Poe put you off too. I see Poe like lots of military types I've met before where they are loyal, caring, steadfast and also INSANELY stupid and reckless and only survives due to the fact that he is really really good at his job. Soloing the dreadnought is just another example at how stupid his plan was and why it basically got the entire fleet of fighters and bombers wiped out and was only successful due to his luck and sheer piloting skill (which makes you a poor leader, hence the later conflicts)

I'm really curious about the military types you're on about. Do you mean vets? Or nerds who like to talk gun specs but have never done anything more than talk?

Cause that was some dumb **** that would just get you dead instantly in any military. Flat out.

1 hour ago, Punning Pundit said:

Except, and this is the really weird bit, from a purely movie making perspective, TLJ is clearly the best of the Star Wars movies. I'm not going to say how much you can or should have enjoyed it. But. It was a legitimately great movie that I can't even begin to understand why it gets the hate it does.

Heres the issue.

The original was a "visionary" constantly being told no while working with addicts and malcontents to turn out some swords and sandals in spess.

The prequel was that "visionary" given free reign and a budget. But now he was just loose in the wild doing random crap.

Both of those came out good. In large part due to the "dont care" and "my way" attitudes going around.

Sequels are high budget marvel in space where filmmaking prestige is the goal. They're big spectacles where people fall in line with the corporate metrics. There is no soul. Only technical excellence. And that's why it fails.

1 minute ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

I'm really curious about the military types you're on about. Do you mean vets? Or nerds who like to talk gun specs but have never done anything more than talk?

Cause that was some dumb **** that would just get you dead instantly in any military. Flat out.

I've come across my fair share of brain dead grunts, hyper arrogant pilots (THIS guy went to college and has a commission?) and the milieu of the military culture (I grew up on many different military bases). Yeah they are never AS bad as Poe, but they are exceptionally borderline all the times. I see Poe as just the amalgamation of every washed up private and overbearing butter bar you've ever come across turned up to 11 and without the existing structure of a real military chain of command. Which is just plain dangerous really.