Why are we even arguing at this point. If he wants to use spindowns, how does that affect us? At most, he'll be refused entry to tournaments, and that doesn't affect us at all.
Tournament Document Doesn’t Define “Dice”
1 minute ago, RedMageStatscowski said:Why are we even arguing at this point. If he wants to use spindowns, how does that affect us? At most, he'll be refused entry to tournaments, and that doesn't affect us at all.
If I am right, then they are trying to use legalistic arguments that all dice are just token.
6 minutes ago, Nohwear said:If I am right, then they are trying to use legalistic arguments that all dice are just token.
Not dice, just spin-down counters. It’s not actually a die - and is prohibited from being used as a die - because of the deliberate arrangement of numbers on it. Some people are just stretching to suck all the joy out of this for me.
Edited by WonderWAAAGH11 minutes ago, RedMageStatscowski said:Why are we even arguing at this point. If he wants to use spindowns, how does that affect us? At most, he'll be refused entry to tournaments, and that doesn't affect us at all.
At this point, mostly to see how far down the rabbit hole goes. I've got my long ears and fluffy tail on and everything.
Because using spindowns are too risky because the chance of it shifting and changing values because of a simple bump, accidental or otherwise, is high. Tokens never change value when bumped, unless you have your pile of tokens right next to your ID card, which shouldn't be the case.
We're not trying to stop you from having fun, we're trying to prevent issues from happening in the future.
Just now, ImhotepMagi said:At this point, mostly to see how far down the rabbit hole goes. I've got my long ears and fluffy tail on and everything.
Careful, some might call that obtuse.
5 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:Not dice, just spin-down counters. It’s not actually a die - and is prohibited from being used as a die - because of the deliberate arrangement of numbers on it. Some people are just stretching to suck all the joy out of this for me.
Prohibited from being rolled in certain settings by certain rulings. A dog is still a dog even if "no dogs allowed" is fairly common.
What joy? Why are spindowns so important to you?
1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:Careful, some might call that obtuse.
No, I'm acute in my bunny costume.
8 minutes ago, ImhotepMagi said:Prohibited from being rolled in certain settings by certain rulings. A dog is still a dog even if "no dogs allowed" is fairly common.
What joy? Why are spindowns so important to you?
Again, we might need to re-evaluate terms like “common,” because nobody I know would consider a spin-down a die. The only people I can imagine doing so are those who have little or no actual experience with them.
Also: not certain situations, all situations. Because it’s not a die.
Edited by WonderWAAAGH1 hour ago, WonderWAAAGH said:But I tell you what, come visit my LGS and I’ll take you out for a beer, and after I show you my long list of personal accolades you can change your mind. Or not. I genuinely don’t care, because I know who I am and what I’ve accomplished, and your opinion of me will never change that.
And I dare you to come to a tournament I'm running and try to pass off this line of BS. You'd be out the door in with your third objection. I don't put up with wannabe lawyers types that don't listen to reason, and you are definitely one of them. What's really pathetic about your post is your need to make claims about accolades. Guess who's actually looking for praise and recognition? As I said, grow up, be a man and admit you are wrong. It won't be the end of the world for you.
Edited by sabrjay6 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:Again, we might need to re-evaluate terms like “common,” because nobody I know would consider a spin-down a die. The only people I can imagine doing so are those who have little or no actual experience with them.
Your pool of friends and acquaintances are outside the norm. Once again, Google it. The entire world's opinion is available to you. Your experiences are not the only experiences and insisting they are the only basis for the definition is entirely absurd.
Edited by ImhotepMagiI have googled it. You think I’m out to make myself look smart, but apparently I can’t be bothered to do simple research? Really? The web is littered with forum posts explaining the exact same reasons as I have why a spin-down is not intended to be rolled like a real die.
8 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:Also: not certain situations, all situations. Because it’s not a die.
Something you have yet to argue effectively.
1 minute ago, ImhotepMagi said:Something you have yet to argue effectively.
Find me a tournament that allows them for anything other than tracking. Or maybe a WotC article.
Edited by WonderWAAAGHLet us assume that a spin down is not a die. That still does not change the fact that FFG has gone into some detail about what tokens must be used, especially during high tier events.
Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:Find me a tournament that allows them for anything other than tracking.
So a die isn't a die unless it's allowed in a tournament? Loaded dice aren't allowed in tournaments either. They are still dice.
3 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:I have googled it. You think I’m out to make myself look smart, but apparently I can’t be bothered to do simple research? Really? The web is littered with forum posts explaining the exact same reasons as I have why a spin-down is not intended to be rolled like a real die.
Well if we are not citing specifics, then I can say I've never seen a forum post that has suggested that it wasn't a die, just that it wasn't a *fair* die to use in a game.
But there are all manner of sales listings, wikis and forum posts that describe spindowns as dice. And they vastly outnumber your opinion that they aren't, which is so far the only one I've ever encountered.
The tournament rules has this to say (p5):
"Typically, players use the cardboard tokens included in official product as indicators. However, players may choose to use other items as indicators, so long as they do not obscure significant component information, are resistant to accidental modification, and their purpose of use is clear to both players."
A spindown looks like it is quite prone to "accidental modification" for the most part and it has to be clear of function to both players.
So in the first instance I think you ask the player not to use the items then escalate it as needed.
5 minutes ago, ImhotepMagi said:So a die isn't a die unless it's allowed in a tournament? Loaded dice aren't allowed in tournaments either. They are still dice.
A spin-down isn’t a die because it doesn’t meet the definition of a die. Being similar to a thing does not make it that thing, otherwise you’d be a white rabbit with an uncanny talent for typing.
What definition are you using?
Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:A spin-down isn’t a die because it doesn’t meet the definition of a die. Being similar to a thing does not make it that thing, otherwise you’d be a white rabbit with an uncanny talent for typing.
It doesn't meet *your* definition of a die. It meets the commonly accepted definition of a die. Just because you want to call it something else doesn't make it not that thing.
How do you block a user on this forum? Just so you don't have to see their posts?
56 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:A spin-down isn’t a die because it doesn’t meet the definition of a die. Being similar to a thing does not make it that thing, otherwise you’d be a white rabbit with an uncanny talent for typing.
It doesn’t match the definition of a die? How? I outright quoted the definition for die earlier as did another poster and aside from not being a cube or having only numbers 1-6 on it (both of which almost no gamer would use as requirements for a die) it matched the definition exactly.
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Life_counter
A spindown life counter is a 20 sided die that is designed for the express purpose of keeping track of life totals.
Magc wiki calls it a die.
56 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:A spin-down isn’t a die because it doesn’t meet the definition of a die. Being similar to a thing does not make it that thing, otherwise you’d be a white rabbit with an uncanny talent for typing.
from the dictionary
die (noun) an item marked on each face with numbers or symbols and used in various games and in gambling by being shaken and thrown to come to rest at random on a flat surface.
Your spin-down meets the definition of a die. Now admit you are wrong.