Can Real-Life Formation Tactics Work?

By Ambaryerno, in X-Wing

So I've played a lot of air-combat simulators, especially Aces High (my handle was Saxman for any other AHers out there). A lot of real-world air-combat tactics find their way into those games for obvious reasons (because they work, and because there's more than a few real-world pilots who play). So I was thinking: Can some of the real-life tactics actually work in the game?

Obviously, there's a number of departures from real-world combat in X-Wing even before you account for the differences between air combat and space combat:

1) The Initiative system

2) Abstraction of complex maneuvering

3) Lack of altitude, etc. meaning all combat occurs on one plane

BUT I was curious if certain elements, particularly wing-pair tactics, could be translated (don't mind the art, I made these graphics a while back for Aces High).

For example:

BeamDefense.png

It starts with the formation called the Beam Defense Formation. Now, this example shows it with a four-ship flight, but it can also be done with two (simply shift craft #2 into the #3 spot). The idea is that if an enemy attacks either end of the formation from behind, the unengaged party can turn in and put the attacker under their guns (more on that in a bit). Additionally, it provides mutually supporting fire for any target in front of the formation. As the formation allows for less individual maneuverability, it would most benefit craft that are tougher, but less maneuverable.

I would say that combat spread in X-Wing should be at Range 2. Range 1 would be too close, as turning to counter an attack from behind might risk putting you at Range 0 and preventing you from getting a shot. Range 3 may be too far may be unwieldy depending on the layout of the obstacles. Beyond Range 3 the attacker may be out of range.

A paired Beam Defense would most likely benefit pilots with good self-benefitting abilities, such as Wedge. In a four-ship formation, you would want those individual pilots in the the #1 and #3 positions. Whereas a support pilot like Biggs or Gavin would work well in the 2 and 4 slots (put these guys within Range 1, stepped back and to the outside like in this diagram here). That way they can provide support for their section leader.

Check.png

The Check Turn is a formation-keeping maneuver, usually performed if one pilot is lagging behind. Simply have both pilots perform the same bank maneuver in the direction of the trailing pilot (if the pilot on the right is stepped back, then execute a bank to the right). This could also be done if both ships are in the proper formation by having the inside pilot execute a shorter turn (say to bank right, the inside pilot makes a 1-speed bank, while the outside pilot makes a 2-speed bank).

Tac.png

The Tac Turn is another method of turning and keeping formation. This one would be a bit more complicated as it would have to be carried out in two movement phases:

* In Phase 1, the outside pilot executes a Turn at a given speed (say, Speed 2). The inside pilot performs a straight maneuver of the same speed.

* In Phase 2, the outside pilot performs a straight maneuver of 1 speed HIGHER than his turn (so in this case, Speed 3). The inside pilot then performs a turn of the original speed (Speed 2).

This SHOULD end with both ships still in Beam Defense Formation.

03.png

Now here's how the Beam Defense actually works. It's called the Defensive Break:

Let's say you have an enemy approaching from astern. You determine which of the ships in the formation he intends to attack, and then both ships execute a full turn of the same speed and same direction. What you should end up with if you predict opponent intent correctly, is both of your ships at the same distance in Line Astern, with the bandit caught under the guns of the second ship. Once the phase ends, you can use a second turn to return to your Beam formation.

There's quite a few other means of maneuvering a formation, that I won't bring into this thread, but I'm curious what you all think. Could this approach actually work in the game?

Edited by Ambaryerno

in certain situations, yes, but with K-turns, talon rolls, and s-loops existing, I think most of your defensive flying techniques are thrown out of the window to maximize time on target, unless you can’t perform one of those moves.

as for squad formation, most I have seen just use the box or W formation tactic, although I could see the Beam formation having some uses.

check turns I know get used a lot with aces style lists/Biggs a lot.

because of how the templates line up, the Tac turn we do in game usually results with the ships in a single line, instead of side by side, because unless you’ve got a certain droid, friendly fire is a nonissue in X-wing. If harpoons ever came back (may they stay dead) a variation of this move would prove profitable.

the last example of baiting an enemy ship in is still a very relevant tactic.

So overall, sometimes yes we can observe real world tactics.

Brilliant post, Ambaryerno. I will try to use the beam defence setup. You could set up the pairs in partial pinwheel formation (front or side aligned with leader's centreline).

1 hour ago, FlyingAnchors said:

but with K-turns, talon rolls, and s-loops existing

These would fall under the abstractions I mentioned, representing more complex combat maneuvering.

The K-turn as described in lore is pretty much a rudder reversal, or a wingover without the vertical/stall component, (think Poe's yaw reversal during his strafing run on the Dreadnought in TLJ) while the Talon Roll appears to be a lag pursuit roll.

I'm having a bit more difficulty finding an IRL equivalent for the S-Loop, but it could be similar to an Oblique Loop as in this diagram:

BNZ_Oblique.png

Beam Defense would preclude utilizing these maneuvers (although coordinated K turns would certainly be viable) — as I noted in the OP, it trades individual maneuverability in favor of mutual fire-support and defense — so you're probably looking at a completely different approach to combat. If you're using this tactic you're probably relying more on a Boom and Zoom-style offensive rather than maneuvering.

Of course there's also the possibility of starting in Beam Defense, and then turning it into a Loose Deuce, but getting back into position within the scope of the game mechanics if you do may be problematic.

1 hour ago, FlyingAnchors said:

because of how the templates line up, the Tac turn we do in game usually results with the ships in a single line

That's why I noted the Tac Turn in this case would have to be a two-phase maneuver. However it's not one that would be done when you're actively under fire, but if you're clear of the engagement zone and have a few turns to spare setting up for another pass.

I look forward to trying these all out with a clone squad in the V-19’s. ?

Thatch weave. Use it all the time.

Very cool!

9 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

Thatch weave. Use it all the time.

Yup, that's a great alternative to the Defensive Break off the Beam Defense. It may be a little trickier to pull off under X-Wing's mechanics, though.

Anyone know of any graphics of the X-Wing ships and maneuver templates that could be loaded into Gimp? I'd love to be able to play around with them and experiment, and maybe even come up with some practical charts.

Edited by Ambaryerno

You could use Vassal or Fly Casual (use hotseat) screenshots.

I don't think Fly Casual would work. What I have in mind would work best with simple line art objects with transparent backgrounds.

48 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

I don't think Fly Casual would work. What I have in mind would work best with simple line art objects with transparent backgrounds.

What about in top-down (2D) mode?

55 minutes ago, TheHumanHydra said:

What about in top-down (2D) mode?

The problem isn't the angle. Line images are going to be much cleaner.

I use Beam Defense. It was an integral part of 1.0 Palp Lambda play for me.

I think beam defence was the entire basis of my twin AdvS/Outmanoevre Defender play. Total chaos was the actual on table manifestation but the theory was there.

Not to say it's impossible to use real world tactics, but there are a couple of things to keep in mind.

1.) The effective engagement distance compared to maneuver distance is much larger in X-wing than WWII combat (if my understanding is correct). With some exceptions, I think WWII fighters had to match speeds and positions pretty closely with their target to get good shots. That's not really a necessity in X-wing, so formations that attempt to defend against that event may need to be modified to defend against the wide firing arcs in X-wing.

2.) In X-wing, pilots don't fear death. Lots of real world tactics of all types are predicated on the idea that just introducing a significant chance of death is enough to prevent engagement. In war games, people throw their forces mercilessly into the meat grinder in ways that would make generals on the Western Front blush.

16 hours ago, Ambaryerno said:

So I've played a lot of air-combat simulators, especially Aces High (my handle was Saxman for any other AHers out there). A lot of real-world air-combat tactics find their way into those games for obvious reasons (because they work, and because there's more than a few real-world pilots who play). So I was thinking: Can some of the real-life tactics actually work in the game?

Great write up. I have used all these to great effect in 1.0. (Work Retail, little playing time for 2.0 this time of year until after the new year 😢 .) No matter what the meta, my favorite and most effective squads were always 3-5 ship lists with 4 ship lists, flown as two wing pairs, being my favorite and most successful.

49 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

2.) In X-wing, pilots don't fear death. Lots of real world tactics of all types are predicated on the idea that just introducing a significant chance of death is enough to prevent engagement. In war games, people throw their forces mercilessly into the meat grinder in ways that would make generals on the Western Front blush.

This, so much this.

In X-Wing, a very common tactic is to purposely dangle a disposable target in front of your opponent as bait in order to both protect your high priority pilots as well as to set traps to pounce on your enemy's big guns.

In real life with real pilots, there is very seldom a "disposable target." If you are trying to line up a shot on a plane in front of you but your radar lock warning goes off, you break and the the heck out of there. Unlike the points scoring system in X-Wing, in real life there are no points for second best.

There are many reasons why real life tactics have- for the most part- no place in X-Wing. For example:

-Weapon Range. IRL, 1 meter of distance means a small decrease in accuracy. In X-Wing, it often means just not being able to shoot at all. This is a big factor for having a "front line" in formations.

-In X-Wing, there is no risk collision during a maneuver. It is extremely common for ships to move on overlapping trajectories, especially in tight formations.

-Friendly ships don't obstruct attacks.

-Morale is not a factor, and value of ships is warped; A victory with a halved academy pilot left on the table is just as good as a complete wipeout (especially with FFG rearranging tournament structures to phase out advancement by MOV).

-X-Wing ships generally don't get one-shot. Whether through agility dice or HP, most ships are perfectly OK with taking some fire. I'm no expert on real life air combat, but I would imagine tanking a guided missile usually isn't an option.

-Obstacles.

Edited by Elavion
41 minutes ago, Elavion said:

-X-Wing ships generally don't get one-shot. Whether through agility dice or HP, most ships are perfectly OK with taking some fire. I'm no expert on real life air combat, but I would imagine tanking a guided missile usually isn't an option     .      

More significant, in this vein: shields.

It would be awesome to use real life tactics in X-wing and I do, in some ways. I like flying pairs of ships in echelon, so I have my lead ship and their wing. One covers the other. I've not used a full beam formation because it doesn't put all guns on target and that's what X-wing typically requires to burn down a target quickly.

Some ships are more capable of using real world tactics. The Starviper is particularly capable - its banked barrel roll with advanced sensors actually simulates a real barrel roll. I'm not sure how many players even know a barrel roll is a maneuver intended for getting behind an enemy, not a lateral move. The Starviper can roll back and then perform a 1 bank to end in relatively the same position, letting a tailing ship fly by. Ships that can perform a stop maneuver have similar capability, but they are more apt to have the opponent bump them and they'll gain stress in the process.

The oblique loop is why I love the new Defender with advanced sensors. You dial in your K-turn and then boost using advanced sensors to put your guns on target with now worry of return fire. An excellent counter to this would actually be the beam defense formation, giving the Defender no completely safe options.

X-wing has its own st of combat tactics and they're fun, but they're not quite "real". It's unfortunate, especially considering Star Wars fighter combat was based on WW2 footage, but the current system still works on many levels. You can still use real tactics to an extent, but you really need to keep the game limitations in mind when using them. The game trumps reality.

A while back...eh...maybe 2 years or so...someone did an article about a 4 ship formation that translates really well to x wing. I've used it ever since with 4 ship lists and it is really good because it allows all 4 to turn together and keep spacing.

I dont know what it's called but it is three in a slanted line and the fourthbtucked a little under and to the side if the first one.

Like this I guess...

X

X X

X

Edit in the real thing thang here:

I found it. It's called a finger 4

https://www.backtodials.com/a-wing-ace-the-finger-four-formation-by-jonathan-scott/

Edited by Velvetelvis

unfortunately, it seems the arbitrary assignment of Initiative rules the skies far more than any application of real world tactics 😕

8 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

A while back...eh...maybe 2 years or so...someone did an article about a 4 ship formation that translates really well to x wing. I've used it ever since with 4 ship lists and it is really good because it allows all 4 to turn together and keep spacing.

I dont know what it's called but it is three in a slanted line and the fourthbtucked a little under and to the side if the first one.

Like this I guess...

X

X X

X

Edit in the real thing thang here:

I found it. It's called a finger 4

https://www.backtodials.com/a-wing-ace-the-finger-four-formation-by-jonathan-scott/

So, I use a lot of tank formations since we don't really have 3 dimensions to play in with X-wing and the finger four you depicted is basically echelon right for tanks. Funny, you can use both with regard to X-wing because of the game's limitations.

16 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

A while back...eh...maybe 2 years or so...someone did an article about a 4 ship formation that translates really well to x wing. I've used it ever since with 4 ship lists and it is really good because it allows all 4 to turn together and keep spacing.

I dont know what it's called but it is three in a slanted line and the fourthbtucked a little under and to the side if the first one.

Like this I guess...

X

X X

X

Edit in the real thing thang here:

I found it. It's called a finger 4

https://www.backtodials.com/a-wing-ace-the-finger-four-formation-by-jonathan-scott/

Ironically, Beam Defense effectively made the Finger Four obsolete as a practical combat formation, though it's still used for navigation (basically, you get to the fight in Finger Four, then switch to your Beam Defense spread).

Anyhoo, I found some template images I can use, so will start playing around with making diagrams using the actual bases and maneuver templates.

This thread has inspired me. I think my next game will be all Squints - Fel plus three Sabers, all with Swarm Tactics and some buffs for Fel (Shield and Hull). I want to see what kind of nonsense I can pull using some real world formations with ships that don't like getting shot at. Will report back on Tuesday (Monday is my regular X-wing night).

11 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

So, I use a lot of tank formations since we don't really have 3 dimensions to play in with X-wing and the finger four you depicted is basically echelon right for tanks. Funny, you can use both with regard to X-wing because of the game's limitations.

Wedge, actually (though in my units we often referred to what is shown as a "heavy right" wedge vs a "heavy left" wedge, but those two terms are not in the doctrine).

Echelon right is:

X

X

X

X

Some real formations can work in X-wing, but there are two problems with X-wing mechanics that make real world formations less effective:

(1) Initiative movement. Leaders go to the front of most of our real world tactical formations, but initiative rules in X-wing has you move the leader last and if you want to minimize the risk of collisions you put the leader at the back. This makes box, diamond, or vee (inverted wedge) formations work better for X-wing.

(2) Ships don't obstruct each other's fire or sensor view. The reason real world formations like the wedge are so effective is that every element of the formation has a large field of fire with minimal risk of being obstructed by a platoon- or wing-mate, and often while maintaining 360 degree security. In X-wing that's irrelevant.