I was writing something about the spoiler comment...

Well there is enough content to understand what the movie is about, the different scene and what's going on with it

That's what you do, you inform yourself... what, do you think I'm going to add myself +1 to the list of people who went to the theater and see the movie and tell Disney that I want more like that? no, I hated the first one, I'm going to do my due diligence and inform myself first... whether from people that saw the movies, content on the internet...etc

Fool me once...you know the saying...

I mean it is clear, Leya surviving space and moving back

Luke doesn't want to be found or train anyone but left a map to him

A person more annoying than Jar Jar bing (or C3-Po from someone else comments here) ….that she is being bullied on the internet... (M. Lucas did learn not to continue with this character and Disney comes up with anyone one but worse?)

A villain that dies stupidly and last few minutes

The real villain that is as charismatic as an old shoe (Darth Vader, The Emperor, Count Dooku, That droid, Darth Maul all were)

Rey who just seem to know it all

I mean there are things that comes up with example that leads you to say, yeah, I don't want to see that...and that's it...

Just the fact that they are turning the Empire as clowns....I've had enough when I saw the parody of the 3rd reich and the girl stormtrooper featured in all preview but used as a ….trying to figure a word to describe what I feel about it but can't from the first movie...

So I'm not asking for any justification on those comments that came to head....

So Bazinga, I'm out... lol

See, this is what happens when you don't watch the movie and then try to comment on it. You take stuff out of context and just get it flat-out wrong.

**Leya surviving space and moving back**

Leia has clearly demonstrated Force use on a couple of occasions. Obi-Wan and Yoda point to it. Luke points to it. She uses it at least twice during the original trilogy (hearing Luke, and killing Jabba).

(And incidentally, throwing Vader in there is a bit disingenuous - you want to discount all the other references but bring in Vader who didn't even know she existed until about ten seconds before Luke kicked the crap out of him??)

1) People can survive in space until they die from asphyxiation - it's not an instant death, and she survived at most a minute or two

2) We've seen previous examples of people using the Force to stay alive. Anakin springs to mind - even with catastrophic injuries he kept himself alive. Maul is another.

3) Her moving through space is the most easily accounted for - she used telekinesis to pull on the ship. Her mass being miniscule in comparison to the ship, she was pulled toward it instead. She didn't "fly through space" as much as pull on a tether made of the Force.

**Luke doesn't want to be found or train anyone but left a map to him**

He didn't "leave a map to himself". R2-D2 had it embedded in his memory circuits and was shut down.

**A person more annoying than Jar Jar bing (or C3-Po from someone else comments here) ….that she is being bullied on the internet... (M. Lucas did learn not to continue with this character and Disney comes up with anyone one but worse?)**

I can only assume that you're talking about Kelly Tran, here. I'm not really sure what you're saying, but she received death and **** threats because she played a character some people didn't like. This is a result of toxic fandom where some pathetic, whining fans so identify with what they want from a franchise that they are willing to threaten a person in real life. Rose - the character - is most definitely not nearly as annoying as Jar-Jar Binks, and had Ahmed Best received those sort of threats for playing him I would have been condemning those wastes of oxygen as well.

**A villain that dies stupidly and last few minutes**

Ah, see, again it would help if you watched the movie.

1) It's not in the "last few minutes" (as opposed to Palpatine, who did die in the last few minutes)

2) "Dying stupidly" is incredibly subjective. I thought the sequence where Snoke's overconfidence betrayed him and how it resulted in his death was extremely well done. No worse than being thrown down a reactor shaft, anyway...

**The real villain that is as charismatic as an old shoe (Darth Vader, The Emperor, Count Dooku, That droid, Darth Maul all were)**

So who's the "real villain"? Snoke? Ren? General Hux? Honestly, I can't tell from what you're saying.

**Rey who just seem to know it all**

This has been done to death. Rey far from "knows it all". You keep saying you could rebut all the arguments people are making, but all you're doing is repeating your statements, despite the fact that you're being shown to be demonstrably wrong on points of fact. Not the opinion bits - nobody is worried by that - but you keep stating stuff that's just flat-out wrong, and then pride yourself on having not watched the film that you're getting stuff wrong about.

**Just the fact that they are turning the Empire as clowns....I've had enough when I saw the parody of the 3rd reich and the girl stormtrooper featured in all preview but used as a ….trying to figure a word to describe what I feel about it but can't from the first movie...**

You don't think the Empire throughout the original trilogy was an analog to the Third Reich? Are you kidding? And while Phasma could have been used better, I'm not sure why you would have a problem with her in general.

59 minutes ago, Mefyrx said:

Well I did....consider the scene under the staircase as a different “encounter”

And, as I said, that was not a separate encounter. It is all a part of the same larger confrontation. Prior to that, Vader didn’t even know he had a daughter. And, not only that, even after finding out, he never commented on her strength in the Force, which he had no way to gauge, simply that she could potentially be turned. As @Daronil said, your entire argument is built on hearsay falsehoods, not facts.

1 hour ago, Daronil said:

3) Her moving through space is the most easily accounted for - she used telekinesis to pull on the ship. Her mass being miniscule in comparison to the ship, she was pulled toward it instead. She didn't "fly through space" as much as pull on a tether made of the Force.

That's silly non-logic. If that were the case then using the Force to move objects should always have a reactive effect on the body of the Force-user. If the Force is used to pick up 100 tons of boulders like Rey does in TLJ, then those 100 tons of mass should crush her body down to a pulp. No, Leia uses the Force on her body to move her body. I'm OK with that effect even though it looked terrible on-screen and I think it's way too strong of a first demonstration of Force-use for Leia.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

That's silly non-logic. If that were the case then using the Force to move objects should always have a reactive effect on the body of the Force-user. If the Force is used to pick up 100 tons of boulders like Rey does in TLJ, then those 100 tons of mass should crush her body down to a pulp. No, Leia uses the Force on her body to move her body. I'm OK with that effect even though it looked terrible on-screen and I think it's way too strong of a first demonstration of Force-use for Leia.

Well, what would happen if you were sitting in space next to a star destroyer and tried to Force Push it away? I would argue that you would go in the opposite direction (of course, in space, it's all relative anyway...).

You make a good point regarding Rey with the rocks (or Yoda with Luke's X-Wing), though. So you're saying Leia's use was more analogous to a "Force jet pack" rather than a "Force tether"?

6 minutes ago, Daronil said:

Well, what would happen if you were sitting in space next to a star destroyer and tried to Force Push it away? I would argue that you would go in the opposite direction (of course, in space, it's all relative anyway...).

You make a good point regarding Rey with the rocks (or Yoda with Luke's X-Wing), though. So you're saying Leia's use was more analogous to a "Force jet pack" rather than a "Force tether"?

If you Move something, it either does or does not work, there is no try reactive movement of your own body in either case.

Oddly, in Clone Wars we sometimes see Jedi getting pushed back, usually with their feet sliding along the ground, when they are forming Force "barriers" but this is nonsensical as the reactions are so inconsistent. It is better to just be fully aware that there is no physical connection between the Jedi and the target of Move. Without such a connection, differences in mass and momentum do not result in the Jedi being flung around like a ragdoll.

9 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

That's silly non-logic. If that were the case then using the Force to move objects should always have a reactive effect on the body of the Force-user. If the Force is used to pick up 100 tons of boulders like Rey does in TLJ, then those 100 tons of mass should crush her body down to a pulp. No, Leia uses the Force on her body to move her body. I'm OK with that effect even though it looked terrible on-screen and I think it's way too strong of a first demonstration of Force-use for Leia.

look at this video at 7:05. It explains what Daronil means.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

If you try to Move something, it either does or does not work, there is no try reactive movement of your own body in either case.

Oddly, in Clone Wars we sometimes see Jedi getting pushed back, usually with their feet sliding along the ground, when they are forming Force "barriers" but this is nonsensical as the reactions are so inconsistent. It is better to just be fully aware that there is no physical connection between the Jedi and the target of Move. Without such a connection, differences in mass and momentum do not result in the Jedi being flung around like a ragdoll.

Yeah, you're right. I hadn't thought it through and was sort of connecting the Jedi's body and the remote object, when really the Force manifestation that causes the impact originates between them, not moving from one to another.

I'll have to rethink some of my in-game stuff...:)

On 12/1/2018 at 9:21 AM, OddballE8 said:

Funniest thing about all of this, is that I don't even like TLJ.

I think its pacing was completely messed up, it had severe identity problems and several scenes were just... childish.

But for some reason, I still haven't set fire to my star wars collection.

I guess, maybe I just have an iron will or something...

🙄

Hope springs eternal....

4 hours ago, Daronil said:

See, this is what happens when you don't watch the movie and then try to comment on it. You take stuff out of context and just get it flat-out wrong.

**Leya surviving space and moving back**

Leia has clearly demonstrated Force use on a couple of occasions. Obi-Wan and Yoda point to it. Luke points to it. She uses it at least twice during the original trilogy (hearing Luke, and killing Jabba).

(And incidentally, throwing Vader in there is a bit disingenuous - you want to discount all the other references but bring in Vader who didn't even know she existed until about ten seconds before Luke kicked the crap out of him??)

1) People can survive in space until they die from asphyxiation - it's not an instant death, and she survived at most a minute or two

2) We've seen previous examples of people using the Force to stay alive. Anakin springs to mind - even with catastrophic injuries he kept himself alive. Maul is another.

3) Her moving through space is the most easily accounted for - she used telekinesis to pull on the ship. Her mass being miniscule in comparison to the ship, she was pulled toward it instead. She didn't "fly through space" as much as pull on a tether made of the Force.

**Luke doesn't want to be found or train anyone but left a map to him**

He didn't "leave a map to himself". R2-D2 had it embedded in his memory circuits and was shut down.

**A person more annoying than Jar Jar bing (or C3-Po from someone else comments here) ….that she is being bullied on the internet... (M. Lucas did learn not to continue with this character and Disney comes up with anyone one but worse?)**

I can only assume that you're talking about Kelly Tran, here. I'm not really sure what you're saying, but she received death and **** threats because she played a character some people didn't like. This is a result of toxic fandom where some pathetic, whining fans so identify with what they want from a franchise that they are willing to threaten a person in real life. Rose - the character - is most definitely not nearly as annoying as Jar-Jar Binks, and had Ahmed Best received those sort of threats for playing him I would have been condemning those wastes of oxygen as well.

**A villain that dies stupidly and last few minutes**

Ah, see, again it would help if you watched the movie.

1) It's not in the "last few minutes" (as opposed to Palpatine, who did die in the last few minutes)

2) "Dying stupidly" is incredibly subjective. I thought the sequence where Snoke's overconfidence betrayed him and how it resulted in his death was extremely well done. No worse than being thrown down a reactor shaft, anyway...

**The real villain that is as charismatic as an old shoe (Darth Vader, The Emperor, Count Dooku, That droid, Darth Maul all were)**

So who's the "real villain"? Snoke? Ren? General Hux? Honestly, I can't tell from what you're saying.

**Rey who just seem to know it all**

This has been done to death. Rey far from "knows it all". You keep saying you could rebut all the arguments people are making, but all you're doing is repeating your statements, despite the fact that you're being shown to be demonstrably wrong on points of fact. Not the opinion bits - nobody is worried by that - but you keep stating stuff that's just flat-out wrong, and then pride yourself on having not watched the film that you're getting stuff wrong about.

**Just the fact that they are turning the Empire as clowns....I've had enough when I saw the parody of the 3rd reich and the girl stormtrooper featured in all preview but used as a ….trying to figure a word to describe what I feel about it but can't from the first movie...**

You don't think the Empire throughout the original trilogy was an analog to the Third Reich? Are you kidding? And while Phasma could have been used better, I'm not sure why you would have a problem with her in general.

I'm going to answer to you just because of the Kelly Tran situation. I didn't watch the scene as you can say. Regardless of what it is, I can make the difference between an actor and a character in a movie. Those who can't shouldn't watch a movie...or tv shows...that is why there are so many crazy people especially in the US....and why actors don't mind coming over here... because we're not all crazy about it...lmao.... There was an episode in friends about this exact behavior..... Now as for who should deserve the blame for whatever she did should of course be the person in charge of the movie...because she was asked to perform the way she did...

The real villain, I was talking about Ren....Snoke could be added to the list anyway...... and no it never cross my mind to put the Star Wars Empire close to the 3rd Reich.... stating that would implies that any Empire (Roman, Khan etc would be the same as the 3rd Reich) …..although the Orcs in LOTR were mentioned a couple of time to be the German soldier....which I think the author denied, but considering when he wrote it and the parallels that can be made...

As for Leya, googling:

Now of course, this is real life....how it is applied in SW may be different....

Either way, if she is able to pull the ship close to her and that the size doesn't matter, why wouldn't the Emperor push the Death Star away from him and therefor not fall...or Mace Windu push the planet away to survive his fall....anyway....just quick rezoning that comes to mind

Phasma could have been used better, well of course, otherwise, don't put her in there...that's the whole point...if you're to make special characters...and that's the biggest issues...the usage of characters.... it really is felt like Disney is pushing their own agenda... the Empire are the bad guys so lets make fun of them, the Rebels are the good guys so lets grant them everything they need to succeed.....(and I do not think that Empire = bad and Rebels = good....I think the best moment was when Anakin and Padme were talking about it on Naboo) that's why Rogue One was so different...it was also made by another crew....and the end was awesome...the whole movie in general was awesome

But in the end, when the actor who plays Luke doesn't like what has become of his character, this should raise questions...

As for something you may want to watch or not.... of course, I've look at other videos but I've found this one most funny

***I'm going to answer to you just because of the Kelly Tran situation. I didn't watch the scene as you can say. Regardless of what it is, I can make the difference between an actor and a character in a movie. Those who can't shouldn't watch a movie...or tv shows...that is why there are so many crazy people especially in the US....and why actors don't mind coming over here... because we're not all crazy about it...lmao.... There was an episode in friends about this exact behavior..... Now as for who should deserve the blame for whatever she did should of course be the person in charge of the movie...because she was asked to perform the way she did...***

That's not quite what I was talking about. I was referring to toxic fandom, where someone becomes so invested in a franchise that it becomes inseparable from their own identity. Where something "bad" happens to the franchise is taken as a personal affront deserving of retribution.

***The real villain, I was talking about Ren....Snoke could be added to the list anyway.....***
Okay. Because I was going to say that Snoke was never meant to be the main villain. Ren's killing of Snoke and elevation of himself to Supreme Leader makes him the villain; Snoke was a means to an end.

***. and no it never cross my mind to put the Star Wars Empire close to the 3rd Reich.... stating that would implies that any Empire (Roman, Khan etc would be the same as the 3rd Reich) …..although the Orcs in LOTR were mentioned a couple of time to be the German soldier....which I think the author denied, but considering when he wrote it and the parallels that can be made...***

Well, I think we can pretty much go by the creator's word on this sort of thing - especially when they've said it unequivocally:

https://www.starwars.com/news/from-world-war-to-star-wars-imperial-officers

George Lucas is pretty un-ambiguous..."The fact that fascism inspired the look and feel of the Empire is no secret. In fact, Star Wars creator George Lucas even refers to the Imperial officers in The Empire Strikes Back as “Nazis” while giving his commentary of the film. He specifically mentions their militaristic dress, noting, “The Nazis are basically the same costume as we used in the first film and they are designed to be very authoritarian, very empire-like.”

***As for Leya, googling:

Now of course, this is real life....how it is applied in SW may be different....***

See, again, I don't think you're actually listening, despite your claim to be able to counter every argument being made. We know Leia is Force-sensitive. We know she has used the Force in the Original Trilogy. We know that both Darth Vader and Darth Maul used the Force to survive injuries that would normally be incompatible with life.

Of course how it is applied in SW is different!!!

***Either way, if she is able to pull the ship close to her and that the size doesn't matter, why wouldn't the Emperor push the Death Star away from him and therefor not fall...or Mace Windu push the planet away to survive his fall....anyway....just quick rezoning that comes to mind***

You have completely missed the point of what I was saying with regard to her use of the Force in the "Mary Poppins" scene.*

I said that she used the Force to pull the ship towards her but because of her tiny mass in comparison to the ship she was pulled towards it instead. Nowhere did I suggest that she hauled the ship around. That's why I specifically used the analogy of a tether between her and the ship. Pulling on it technically moves the ship towards her, but in reality, because of the vast difference in mass, she is pulled towards the ship.

Read the novelisation of Attack of the Clones; Anakin does precisely this as he drops down an elevator shaft when looking for a speeder before the chase through Coruscant. Windu had just been blasted by Sith lightning and had his hand severed, Palpatine had just blasted himself with his own Sith lightning. Stopping oneself from a 170 km/h fall and pulling oneself gently through microgravity are, I contend, two different things.

* having said that, I'm re-evaluating my position on this in light of what HappyDaze pointed out. Doesn't change the fact that 1) she could move through space, and 2) you got my explanation completely bass-ackwards.

***Phasma could have been used better, well of course, otherwise, don't put her in there...that's the whole point...if you're to make special characters...and that's the biggest issues...the usage of characters.... it really is felt like Disney is pushing their own agenda...the Empire are the bad guys so lets make fun of them,***

Yeah, it would be just so typical of Disney to take a badass character and have him be knocked into a monster's mouth by a blind guy with a stick and then have the monster burp, wouldn't it? Oh wait...that wasn't Disney.

***the Rebels are the good guys so lets grant them everything they need to succeed.....(and I do not think that is the case....and I think the best moment was when Anakin and Padme were talking about it on Naboo)***

Talking about what?

***that's why Rogue One was so different...it was also made by another crew....and the end was awesome...the whole movie in general was awesome***

It was made by Disney. Sorry, but you don't get to say: "Of the four Disney-released Star Wars films, two blew chunks (though I haven't seen one of them), one was okay by all reports, and another was great - but Disney should be beaten about the head with a sturdy ladle for making such crap Star Wars movies".

You're engaging in what is sometimes called the "Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy". Someone shoots a bunch of holes in a barn wall, then draws a big circle around them and says: "Look! I got everything inside the circle!"

You want to lay it all on Disney for releasing terrible Star Wars movies, yet by your own admission, at least one of them was terrific. Ah, but all the Disney SW movies that YOU say are crap are made by Disney...but we'll make an exception for Rogue One; the one you happen to like.

Right now I'm not sur which badass character you're referring to

The scene with Anakin and Padme where she talks about democracy and Anakin talks about a dictatorship...

Well sure, a movie can use pieces of history, he didn't say I'm going to make the 3rd Reich as if they've one the war... in the movie 1-2-3, we come to learn how all of this unfold.... but what you're talking about is the uniforms and authority like.... yes that fits an empire …

The thing is you're answering part of my comments, as a whole you're leaving apart what you're conceding...

1) Leya flying like Mary Poppins, your finding something that could work within the SW Universe. I feel uncomfortable with this behavior understanding that at the last movie, yes it was a while back, she had no Force usage and of course nobody left to teach her anything.

2) You seem to concede that Ren and Snoke are not charismatic characters

3) Good point about the dress up and military like with the 3rd reich but to me, this is simply an empire and they've chosen to model their canvas toward what the German did.... it doesn't make them the 3rd reich…. the scene in TFA is pretty much that though

4) Phasma could have been used better, to you it is a could of, to me it is a must....or just don't put it in there and first of all, don't put her in any preview

5) About Disney making good movies... of course they do.... Indiana Jones, loved all 4.... National Treasures, love both..... Rogue one, I loved that too..... but if you Wikipedia the movie, TFA, TLJ, Solo was made by the same producer, write etc

Rogue one was made by another team that got fired by Disney.... last time I've checked...

6) About the actor who play Luke not being happy about the development of his character for good reason, you've left this blank...

7) Miss understood on the Kelly Tran situation.... well many have said that she was more annoying than Jar Jar Bing who was surely less annoying that C3-P0.... C3-P0 was enough....having to put him back together all the time was just enough, don't need more than that.....otherwise it becomes annoying...

8 ) and lastly, the youtube movie I think by itself says it all... you can fast forward to 9min if you want to skip the non explanatory part....there is so many valid stuff being said...that its nothing compare to what I've said so far...even though he has some hard feeling about the Asian *****….lol ….not sure he talks about what I've head....going hyperspace to destroy a ship in front of you even though that's not how it works at all...

***Right now I'm not sur which badass character you're referring to***

Aren't you the enormous fan of the original trilogy? Boba Fett.

***The scene with Anakin and Padme where she talks about democracy and Anakin talks about a dictatorship...***

Oh, that scene. *shudder*

See, I think the prequels are utter crap. But you know what? I've seen all of them. I've seen all of them several times. I'm not basing my opinion of them on someone else's opinion. And my reasons for hating them aren't a cobbled-together hodge-podge of other peoples' opinions, a few out-of-context scenes on YouTube, and filling in the gaps between them with stuff I'm making up.

And most importantly, I do not think less of people who do like the prequels. And I certainly didn't destroy all my memorabilia and RPG stuff when The Phantom Menace came out...

Just, ah, incidentally - it was most certainly implied by that scene that Padme's wish for democracy = good and Anakin's childish desire for authoritarianism = bad.

***Well sure, a movie can use pieces of history, he didn't say I'm going to make the 3rd Reich as if they've one the war... in the movie 1-2-3, we come to learn how all of this unfold.... but what you're talking about is the uniforms and authority like.... yes that fits an empire …***

You were the one who said that it never occurred to you that the Galactic Empire was based on the Third Reich, and then went off in another direction saying that this would mean that, say, the Roman Empire was similar to the Third Reich. Which is clearly nonsense - the Romulan Star Empire in Star Trek is loosely based on the Roman Empire, and it's nothing like the Third Reich except that it's authoritarian.

***The thing is you're answering part of my comments, as a whole you're leaving apart what you're conceding...***

I haven't conceded a thing.

To be completely blunt, I'm having a hard time parsing what you're saying at times. I'm assuming English isn't your first language, and that's fine - but don't make the assumption that if I've missed a sentence or two here and there that I'm conceding. So far you have convinced me of absolutely nothing except that you are displaying the height of hubris in the assumption that those who like a movie (that they've seen) are stupid or have low standards because you don't like it (even though you haven't seen it).

***1) Leya flying like Mary Poppins, your finding something that could work within the SW Universe. I feel uncomfortable with this behavior understanding that at the last movie, yes it was a while back, she had no Force usage and of course nobody left to teach her anything.***

See, you're doing it again. You keep repeating the same thing about Leia having "no Force usage" despite the fact that - as has been pointed out to you multiple times - she used the Force on a number of occasions in the original trilogy, was regarded by both Obi-Wan and Yoda as being the next hope if Luke didn't make it, was the daughter of one incredibly powerful Force user and the mother of another. As to who was left to teach her? Ummm...her twin brother? Kylo was 20-ish years old when he and Luke split and he took off. So that's at least twenty years Luke had to teach Leia a whole bunch of stuff.

But then, you might not know that because you haven't watched the friggin' movie you're complaining about!!!

***2) You seem to concede that Ren and Snoke are not charismatic characters***

You're pretty good at putting words into my mouth, my friend.

I think Kylo Ren is very cool, and I'm looking forward to seeing where he goes as Supreme Leader, rather than just Snoke's tool. The sequence where Ren outsmarted Snoke and killed him, with Snoke gloating over Rey the whole time was excellent. The interactions between Rey and Kylo were terrific, and his fury at being bested by Luke was palpable.

Snoke was never meant to be a "charismatic character". He was designed to be a vehicle for Ren.

***3) Good point about the dress up and military like with the 3rd reich but to me, this is simply an empire and they've chosen to model their canvas toward what the German did.... it doesn't make them the 3rd reich…. the scene in TFA is pretty much that though***

The Starkiller Rally was simply another allusion to Nazi Germany. They were rife through the original trilogy. Why is it that x references were fine but x + 1 is suddenly terrible?

***4) Phasma could have been used better, to you it is a could of, to me it is a must....or just don't put it in there and first of all, don't put her in any preview***

This is why I brought up the Boba Fett thing. A badass character that was poorly utilised. You seem to have this thing of condemning situations or scenarios or character archetypes if they're in TLJ (or TFA), but are fine with them being in the original trilogy.

***5) About Disney making good movies... of course they do.... Indiana Jones, loved all 4.... National Treasures, love both..... Rogue one, I loved that too..... but if you Wikipedia the movie, TFA, TLJ, Solo was made by the same producer, write etc

Rogue one was made by another team that got fired by Disney.... last time I've checked...***

Disney has made all the SW movies since Revenge of the Sith. Kathleen Kennedy has overseen all of them. Disney make Star Wars movies now. They're not going to remake the sequel trilogy because someone who hasn't seen the second (and says they won't see the third) didn't like it.

***6) About the actor who play Luke not being happy about the development of his character for good reason, you've left this blank...***

I didn't even see it. Like I said, when I'm wading through word salad sometimes I miss something.

Mark Hamill backed down on his initial criticism, incidentally.

https://variety.com/2017/film/news/mark-hamill-criticism-rian-johnson-luke-skywalker-last-jedi-1202648884/

Even had he not...well, so what? He's an actor, not a creative director. Harrison Ford hated Han Solo and wanted George Lucas to kill him off in ESB - should we therefore conclude that Han Solo was a bad character?

***7) Miss understood on the Kelly Tran situation.... well many have said that she was more annoying than Jar Jar Bing who was surely less annoying that C3-P0.... C3-P0 was enough....having to put him back together all the time was just enough, don't need more than that.....otherwise it becomes annoying...***

So, again, you're okay with an annoying character in the original trilogy, but an annoying character - even the same one - in TFA/TLJ is the mark of a bad movie? More and more it just sounds like: "Original Trilogy = good, Sequel Trilogy = bad", and you'll bend and twist and cherry-pick anything to try and justify this.

And yet again, knock yourself out. Hate TLJ all you like. My daughter hates it. My best friend hates it.

But they don't accuse me of being stupid or having "low standards" for liking it. Nor do they just make **** up about it in order to claim it was a bad movie.

***8 ) and lastly, the youtube movie I think by itself says it all... you can fast forward to 9min if you want to skip the non explanatory part....there is so many valid stuff being said...that its nothing compare to what I've said so far...even though he has some hard feeling about the Asian *****….lol ….not sure he talks about what I've head....going hyperspace to destroy a ship in front of you even though that's not how it works at all...***

I've seen dozens of these YouTube videos on how terrible TLJ was. Some make fair points about pacing, or about how the Canto Bight sequence was out of place. They're perfectly fine criticisms. But most of them just rehash the same, tired old arguments you've been making.

And you've just brought in another one for good measure. The hyperspace ram which you claim is "not how it works at all" has been explained multiple times, by many people. I don't need to hear someone else parrot back all the debunked nonsense about how it can't work.

***the Asian *****….lol ***

I also cringe at what I suspect you actually said here. If the censored word is what I think it might be, coupled with your "lol" after it, then we're done.

Yawn!

@Daronil, you are a force for good in this thread and for preventing-me-from-having-an-aneurysm.

One of the broader issues I have been concerned with in research is canonization and historical/cultural memory. So many of the most important works have something new to say to each generation, and each generation is influenced by them in different ways, including creating new works influenced by them, to a greater or lesser extent. And that's fine. It's natural and helps literary works remain relevant, that people can take new lessons and ideas away from them.

I just have a lot of trouble respecting people who expect Star Wars to cater exclusively to their inner ten-year-old when they themselves are at least twenty. Have they grown so little as people?

We run into sticky issues with criticism because, yes, every opinion about merit is subjective. However, analysis, when done well, can help us see what works are trying to accomplish and whether or not they succeed at doing so. The main films in Star Wars, especially the OT, are working with very broad brush-strokes; again, this is fine: they are operating on the same level as folklore and fairy tales, and texts like that aren't concerned with the same things many people seem to expect them to be. It's fine; it's just a different approach. I guarantee you that the Snow White does not hinge upon the Evil Queen's economic policies or her 'backstory.' People focusing solely on plot holes (and this is not to deny that, in modern media especially, they can definitely detract from a work) and broad characterization are missing the point.

14 minutes ago, Mindless Philosopher said:

I guarantee you that the Snow White does not hinge upon the Evil Queen's economic policies or her 'backstory.'

Maleficent showed us the opposite in regard to Sleeping Beauty's Evil Queen. Perhaps Snow White would be more interesting if given the same exploration.

see, it all comes down to opinion (like ive said again and again) even though you've criticized some because because i havent watched the movie.....although ive dones my research...it isnt perfect...not like if people could just shared every video footage...nor that i realy want to see it....like i said ive profoundly hated TFA and TLJ was considered bad compared to TFA by the same people (~50) that liked TFA

I've done the * myself as it is a quote from the youtube video ive shared....

Mark Hamil backed done because he is under contract with Disney and hes not allowed to say whatever he wants... gotta read between the lines here....

This is not the link i wanted but i think it will do....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_films_and_television_series

not the same writers etc

Roman empire is not the Romulan empire....i suggest you watch the movie Gladiator if you do not want to go back in history...... clothing and stance doesnt make you the 3rd reich...it doesnt make you beleive in the same thing....when you look at Hitler speech and decide make something similar in your movie....then the conotation is much more prononounced...

now I'm really out... im definitly not changing my mind about it nor proven that it should...there has been argument...the same that i could find online within the youtube chat....for the most part.....and as ive stated previously....it came down to exactly that but i felt like having a civilize conversation just to prove that i can be civilize about it

so i guess, we no longer need piloting skill to fight in our game session, we will just hyperspace into every ship on front of us......until i become the gm, at that point you will just hit a brick wall....(sarcasm for those who dont understand it)...a movie should self explain itself and not have to people explain it after the fact... its like wanted to go out with a girl and you always make up excuses and self explain for why she may decline until one day it gets to you, it is simply because she is not interested...

good bye from this discussion....

Well... err... that kicked up a ****storm. I'm logging off to watch Christmas films and drink more mulled wine than I should as it's a school night 🍷

On the subject of toxic fandom, with some focus on the Kelly Marie Tran issue. I’m sure, though, that co-host Dr Andrea Letemendi’s views on the phenomenon will be dismissed, despite her credentials. (Also, apparently co-host Amy Ratcliffe got death threats for writing a “Women of the Star Wars Galaxy” book. So, yeah, let’s just shrug at the notion of toxic fandom, and give more weight to the complaints of someone’s righteous fury about...something he knows nothing about, not having seen the movie.)

https://www.coffeewithkenobi.com/lattes-with-leia-34-the-impact-of-toxicity/

So I wonder how many more pages this thread will go before the moderators finally lock it?

It's already got wildly off-tangent and is frankly more of a flame war than any sort of constructive discussion.

9 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

So I wonder how many more pages this thread will go before the moderators finally lock it?

It's already got wildly off-tangent and is frankly more of a flame war than any sort of constructive discussion.

This. Absolutely this.

I got bored the other day and watched TFA and TLJ. They weren't great movies but the scorn and hate levelled at them may be a bit excessive. But then, my main standard for a movie is "Was I entertained?"

4 hours ago, Mefyrx said:

see, it all comes down to opinion (like ive said again and again) even though you've criticized some because because i havent watched the movie.....although ive dones my research...it isnt perfect...not like if people could just shared every video footage...nor that i realy want to see it....like i said ive profoundly hated TFA and TLJ was considered bad compared to TFA by the same people (~50) that liked TFA

I've done the * myself as it is a quote from the youtube video ive shared....

Mark Hamil backed done because he is under contract with Disney and hes not allowed to say whatever he wants... gotta read between the lines here....

This is not the link i wanted but i think it will do....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_films_and_television_series

not the same writers etc

Roman empire is not the Romulan empire....i suggest you watch the movie Gladiator if you do not want to go back in history...... clothing and stance doesnt make you the 3rd reich...it doesnt make you beleive in the same thing....when you look at Hitler speech and decide make something similar in your movie....then the conotation is much more prononounced...

now I'm really out... im definitly not changing my mind about it nor proven that it should...there has been argument...the same that i could find online within the youtube chat....for the most part.....and as ive stated previously....it came down to exactly that but i felt like having a civilize conversation just to prove that i can be civilize about it

so i guess, we no longer need piloting skill to fight in our game session, we will just hyperspace into every ship on front of us......until i become the gm, at that point you will just hit a brick wall....(sarcasm for those who dont understand it)...a movie should self explain itself and not have to people explain it after the fact... its like wanted to go out with a girl and you always make up excuses and self explain for why she may decline until one day it gets to you, it is simply because she is not interested...

good bye from this discussion....

Huh, seems like someone deleted my point. Oh well, time to make it again. Put in a bit of effort on cleaning up your writing. English might be a second language for you, much like it is for me, and you might have dyslexia, same as me, but it's worth it to put in that extra little bit of dedication. Might be a matter of more discerning taste though (in case you missed it, I'm using an argument you previously made here) and there is no accounting for it. Your overuse of ellipses in your writing makes it difficult to read and puts people off on your message, although this might be intentional since then it's easier to write off critics as people who don't appreciate your particular brand of genius.

Anyway, the point I was truly trying to preserve. The Empire in the original trilogy was clearly inspired by fascism and more specifically the Third Reich. From the cut of their uniforms to some of the language used, which is why we have stormtroopers. We also have Lucas word for it, so it's rather clear cut. On top of that their ruling ideology of "Humanity First" is pretty clearly fascist. It's an ideology of a strong central state, militarism, grandiosity, authoritarianism, expansionism, genocide and has a cult of personality slapped onto it for good measure. It's a textbook case of fascism. The reason it reminds you of the Roman Empire is because fascists love the Roman Empire, they almost always aspire at recreating their version of it. For the Italian Fascists that would be the OG Roman Empire, which they borrowed heavily from in terms of symbolism. In the case of the Third Reich they were more fond of old Holy Roman Empire stuff (fun fact, the HRE was another attempt at recreating the Roman Empire), since the Third part in the Third Reich means there were two before, second Reich which was the German Empire disbanded at the end of the Great War and the HRE being the first Reich. The reason why Hitler wanted the Third Reich to last for a thousand years is that the Roman Empire lasted for about that long (shorter or longer depending on how you define it). So yeah, pretty much any western Empire builder would go for the Roman Empire as their inspiration.

Anyway, have fun. Although you seem to be against that concept among others, I still hope you can find some ray of enjoyment in this bleak horrible existance. There is more to life than ranting and raving on the internet, although I'm hardly one to preach considering this is the second iteration of this message.

Ignoring everything else...

***Roman empire is not the Romulan empire***

Uh. Yes. That's entirely my point.

***....i suggest you watch the movie Gladiator if you do not want to go back in history***

I'm studying a degree in Ancient History at the moment. I have a decent knowledge of Rome, and, umm...well, let's just say Gladiator, while an entertaining movie, bears about as much resemblance to actual history as Game of Thrones does to Lord of the Rings.

But yeah, for what it's worth, I apologise for my part in derailing the thread.

Nothing more from me on the subject.