59 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Imagine I'm sitting down at a restaurant with friends and we order a pizza. While I'm up using the restroom the pizza arrives and my three friends each grab a slice and take bites. They all spit it out saying it tastes like crap and tell the waiter to take it away. I return to the table and see my friends looking nauseated and unhappy as we all quickly leave the restaurant to find food elsewhere. I certainly did not need to taste the pizza myself to understand it was bad, nor to say that in a review on some internet site. I can also feel good about warning customers away from the place with the crap pie. TLJ is a crap pie.

No, TLJ is a pie that your friends didn’t care for. As you yourself said, though, you tasted it yourself to see if you shared their view of the pie. Provide your opinion all you like.

You are, however, once again arguing a point that wasn’t made. Someone who never tasted that pizza has not only said that they know it tastes bad without ever even stepping inside the restaurant, they’ve topped that off by saying they don’t want to spend money to see if they like the pizza because the manager kicks puppies or something. As an alternative, he’s been given an idea of how he can taste it for himself without any extra cost. He can, of course, choose to say, “Nah, I’m good. I don’t think it’ll be to my tastes.” But, under those circumstances, he can’t say he knows the pizza is bad.

3 hours ago, Galakk Fyyar said:

I don't like Disney either, but it's not like the old Expanded Universe was perfect either. Surely he can be convinced to ignore the stuff he doesn't like and run his game in his Star Wars.

You ain't kidding about the Expanded Universe.

I ran plenty of games that just completely ignored the bulk of events that took place after Return of the Jedi, with about the main things I kept being the Thrawn Trilogy, the X-Wing series (though only in broad strokes), and that Luke set up a Jedi training school on Yavin 4. Just about everything else in terms of events from that time frame got tossed into the trash compactor, and everything from NJO onwards I happily just ignored.

That said, the Star Wars Legends comic book series (set 130+ years after ANH) was rich with campaign ideas, and an old friend of mine even ran a very fun campaign in that era using WotC's Dawn of Defiance mega-campaign as a launching point that dropped Cade Skywalker (good riddance) entirely to ensure that our PCs were the ones that would be the principal heroes in the war against the Sith Empire.

21 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

No, TLJ is a pie that your friends didn’t care for. As you yourself said, though, you tasted it yourself to see if you shared their view of the pie. Provide your opinion all you like.

You are, however, once again arguing a point that wasn’t made. Someone who never tasted that pizza has not only said that they know it tastes bad without ever even stepping inside the restaurant, they’ve topped that off by saying they don’t want to spend money to see if they like the pizza because the manager kicks puppies or something. As an alternative, he’s been given an idea of how he can taste it for himself without any extra cost. He can, of course, choose to say, “Nah, I’m good. I don’t think it’ll be to my tastes.” But, under those circumstances, he can’t say he knows the pizza is bad.

Sorry, but seeing TLJ was a mistake even for free. If I can spare others that pain, I'm doing a good deed. You don't have to experience something yourself to know it's not a good thing, so if others can learn from my mistake they're right to do so.

34 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Sorry, but seeing TLJ was a mistake even for free. If I can spare others that pain, I'm doing a good deed. You don't have to experience something yourself to know it's not a good thing, so if others can learn from my mistake they're right to do so.

Meanwhile, others don’t share that response to the movie.

Nice self-aggrandizing hyperbole, though. What else should everyone surrender their opinions about, letting you decide for them?

31 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Sorry, but seeing TLJ was a mistake even for free. If I can spare others that pain, I'm doing a good deed. You don't have to experience something yourself to know it's not a good thing, so if others can learn from my mistake they're right to do so.

Since there are people (quite a few, actually) that actually like and think TLJ is a good film, you're demonstrably and objectively wrong about that, which is one h*ll of an acheivement when discussing subjective qualities.

29 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Since there are people (quite a few, actually) that actually like and think TLJ is a good film, you're demonstrably and objectively wrong about that, which is one h*ll of an acheivement when discussing subjective qualities.

If we apply the same logic that we’re responding to, our enjoying it means that anyone refusing to see it is making a mistake....

Clearly, I’m doing something wrong.

Upthread, I mentioned the Titans series on the DC Universe streaming service. Since 1980, I’ve wanted to see my favorite comic brought to the screen, big or small, animated or live. When the Teen Titans cartoon debuted in the early 2000s, it took until the first commmercial break to realize it just wasn’t for me. The follow-up, Teen Titans Go! didn’t even take that. The current live action Titans series had me worried with the announcement of a showrunner (Akiva Goldsman) who has always turned in genre projects that I’ve found underwhelming (the Lost in Space movie; Batman Forever; Batman and Robin; I, Robot). Then came the preview. I didn’t care for Starfire’s design, a foul-mouthed D Grayson/Robin who appears to maim and murder, the overall “grim ‘n gritty” look of the show all apparently to garner a TV-MA rating for what’s always been a straightforward, all-ages action-adventure property with a dash of soap opera thrown in. Where my mistake lies, apparently, is in reacting by...saying “I’m not interested in it, and here’s why,” not watching it, and telling those who enjoy it that I’m glad they do.

It looks like what I’m supposed to do is rant and rave about how horrible it is (despite never having watched an episode), tell everyone who does enjoy it how stupid they are for enjoying something that I know for a fact is awful (despite never having watched an episode), and throw a hissy fit that results in me destroying or giving away the Titans books and merchandise that I own and do enjoy because - somehow - these three tv series, by their mere existence, have destroyed everything that has made other iterations of the Titans enjoyable to me throughout their publishing history (despite their content being unchanged).

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

What else should everyone surrender their opinions about, letting you decide for them?

Do you really want an answer? You seem to be in the vicious ranting phase that you want to accuse all others of falling to, but really, you're the monster.

11 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

I can at least give the benefit of the doubt on this aspect. It's probably not that the rental price would be a hardship but that if - based on promotional materials intended to spark interest having the opposite effect - not wanting to spend anything in direct support. I, myself, take the same approach with some things (the current DC movie franchise or Star Trek: Discovery , for example; in fact, as a lifelong Teen Titans fan, the new Titans series has changed my mind regarding the DC Universe streaming service...I won't be subscribing, after all, and will instead rent or purchase the series that I'm interested in like Young Justice season 3 when/if they're released on home video). That said, I've seen enough of them on cable (or, in the case of Discovery , when CBS aired the pilot on broadcast) to know I was right to think I wouldn't enjoy them. But, what I've seen has been watched through means that incur no additional cost at all to me. (I already pay for the various movie channels and Netflix...checking out these movies out of morbid curiosity doesn't up the bills).

Worth noting...I've never disparaged anyone who does enjoy them. In fact, I try to be sure that my reactions are put forth as, "This is why I don't like them," instead of, "I don't like it, so it's garbage."

I hear ya but that not wanting to support Yet Another Money Grab™ is completely different from "I didn't see it but it's crap!"

I too was disappointed by the choice they made with Star Trek - I already pay a premium for network TV, but now they want to milk my wallet even more? No thanks. Why are there commercials on that network if I still have to pay to see the show? But that's not really the point here, the point is someone critiquing something they haven't seen, I thought.

So whats the point of this whole post?

Just now, amuller93 said:

So whats the point of this whole post?

Some people like to have fresh infusions of material to keep their level of interest in a hobby. In this case, it's Star Wars material. When that infusion comes in flavors they don't like, namely much of Disney's new materials, some of them will lose interest in Star Wars. If they do lose interest, the old materials may not hold an attraction to them any longer and they may sell or give away the old materials. Because it's the internet, some people will then say that they are wrong for feeling this way, possibly because they themselves might become insecure for liking the new infusions and then taking the criticism personally. They'll decry the others as "toxic" when they themselves are the aggressors.

This thread has clearly become hopelessly inflamed, but I'll make the analogy regardless:

Any sommelier will say that dry champagne and wedding cake is a horrible pairing, nonetheless some enjoy it due to positive associations -- weddings are joyous events, after all. However, it would be a mistake to either recommend the pairing or consume until one found it bearable. Having said that, drink what you like...

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Some people like to have fresh infusions of material to keep their level of interest in a hobby. In this case, it's Star Wars material. When that infusion comes in flavors they don't like, namely much of Disney's new materials, some of them will lose interest in Star Wars. If they do lose interest, the old materials may not hold an attraction to them any longer and they may sell or give away the old materials. Because it's the internet, some people will then say that they are wrong for feeling this way, possibly because they themselves might become insecure for liking the new infusions and then taking the criticism personally. They'll decry the others as "toxic" when they themselves are the aggressors.

To me it just seams like someone just putting down a random statement of his GM being sick of the game. Kinda reminds me of those farwell post pepole make on forums sometimes that just rambel on without putting in anything to disscuse

17 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Do you really want an answer? You seem to be in the vicious ranting phase that you want to accuse all others of falling to, but really, you're the monster.

Please do answer, seeing as you’ve declared yourself the ultimate arbiter of what “mistakes” people should avoid. Enlighten us all on what opinions we should surrender to you.

While you’re at it, please let me know what “vicious rant” I’ve made.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Please do answer, seeing as you’ve declared yourself the ultimate arbiter of what “mistakes” people should avoid. Enlighten us all on what opinions we should surrender to you.

While you’re at it, please let me know what “vicious rant” I’ve made.

I said I've warned people off of the movie. Here's a not secret: I did it months before I even saw the movie. I didn't even see the movie until after a few of them that didn't listen came back and told me I was totally right. Did I ask them to surrender their opinions? Nope. But I warned them it was going to be crap. And I'll keep doing it when the crapstink starts wafting from the next piece too.

As for your rant, you're so fired up at attacking anyone that thinks badly of TLJ without seeing it. Why? Why does it matter so much to you?

1 hour ago, themensch said:

I hear ya but that not wanting to support Yet Another Money Grab™ is completely different from "I didn't see it but it's crap!"

I too was disappointed by the choice they made with Star Trek - I already pay a premium for network TV, but now they want to milk my wallet even more? No thanks. Why are there commercials on that network if I still have to pay to see the show? But that's not really the point here, the point is someone critiquing something they haven't seen, I thought.

Oh, for sure. Right there, I was just zeroing in on just the “I don’t wanna pay to see it” dodge that had been employed.

I’m right there with you on CBS All Access’ model. And, was all set to buy into the DC Universe service, but I’ve decided to hold out and see if it’s possible to only buy/support the series that I’m interested in via blu-ray or some other medium.

Right now, every content creator wants their own exclusive streaming service, hoping to reap Netflix-level profits, as more and more people move away from cable. But, I see it (fairly quickly) reaching a saturation level where the audience wants a single point of pay and access...which will bring us right back to cable, but perhaps with an a la carte structure that audiences have been asking for for decades.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I said I've warned people off of the movie. Here's a not secret: I did it months before I even saw the movie. I didn't even see the movie until after a few of them that didn't listen came back and told me I was totally right. Did I ask them to surrender their opinions? Nope. But I warned them it was going to be crap. And I'll keep doing it when the crapstink starts wafting from the next piece too.

And, many others had a different reaction. Who’s right?

4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

As for your rant, you're so fired up at attacking anyone that thinks badly of TLJ without seeing it. Why? Why does it matter so much to you?

Where are these “attacks?”

Not once have I said that no one is allowed to say, “I don’t think I’ll like this” about TLJ or anything else. In fact, I’ve pointed out instances of doing so, myself. But, neither I nor anyone else can make an informed assessment of the quality of any movie, tv show, book, music, etc. without experiencing it.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

But, neither I nor anyone else can make an informed assessment of the quality of any movie, tv show, book, music, etc. without experiencing it.

There is sufficient material about the movie, from trailers, online comments, opinions of those trusted & respected to infer what the film is likely to be. Inductive reasoning allows those that have not seen it to determine that TLJ is probably crap even without seeing it. Yes, inductive reasoning always allows for the possibility that the premise is false, but it is still a great way to filter out crap that is highly likely to be crap.

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

There is sufficient material about the movie, from trailers, online comments, opinions of those trusted & respected to infer what the film is likely to be. Inductive reasoning allows those that have not seen it to determine that TLJ is probably crap even without seeing it. Yes, inductive reasoning always allows for the possibility that the premise is false, but it is still a great way to filter out crap that is highly likely to be crap.

I agree that there’s sufficient material in advance information to determine whether or not one is likely to enjoy a work. Of course I agree...it’s the very premise behind my choosing not to watch the Titans series I’ve used as an example. To my tastes , it looks awful. Meanwhile, there are more than a few watching it who find it to be well-done in all aspects. So...who’s right? Never having seen an episode, would I have a leg to stand on if I declared that it was a bad show? If I give in and watch, and still don’t like it, does that, in and of itself mean that it’s bad? Or is it just a show that’s not to my liking?

4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I agree that there’s sufficient material in advance information to determine whether or not one is likely to enjoy a work. Of course I agree...it’s the very premise behind my choosing not to watch the Titans series I’ve used as an example. To my tastes , it looks awful. Meanwhile, there are more than a few watching it who find it to be well-done in all aspects. So...who’s right? Never having seen an episode, would I have a leg to stand on if I declared that it was a bad show? If I give in and watch, and still don’t like it, does that, in and of itself mean that it’s bad? Or is it just a show that’s not to my liking?

If you go by that approach, nothing can be said to be objectively good or bad. Is Mein Kampf bad or just not to my liking?

Far better to be true to yourself and stick with calling what you like good and what you don't like bad. You only have to live with yourself and, in the end, die with yourself.

17 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

If you go by that approach, nothing can be said to be objectively good or bad. Is Mein Kampf bad or just not to my liking?

Sure it can. In this particular case, we’re dealing with a movie that has no more egregious flaws than any other entry in the franchise, but they’re not lambasted in the same way (and are, in fact, held up as examples of the franchise “done right”). More specifically, this sub-(sub-?)discussion focuses on an individual who has made definitive declarations regarding those objective aspects while also declaring his willful ignorance of the actual content of the movie.

Still waiting to hear: Would I have a leg to stand on if I went on about the quality of Titans without ever watching an episode?

17 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Far better to be true to yourself and stick with calling what you like good and what you don't like bad. You only have to live with yourself and, in the end, die with yourself.

Sure. Why be accurate and honest and say, “I don’t like it,” when it massages one’s self importance much better to make like Jay Sherman?

ETA: It’s possible to have a strong discussion about the objective measures of a movie, and even to disagree about some of them, without insulting those who disagree, or engaging in boorish behavior. But to have that discussion, one needs to have knowledge of the subject matter, and it’s hard to get that by way of repeating second- or third-hand information that may or may not be accurate or born of a subjective reaction to the work.

On 12/3/2018 at 5:03 PM, the mercenary said:

In the Yoda example, if Yoda personally tried to lift the X-wing, then he'd be crushed (or just ruin all the muscles in his legs and back). And if the Force had equal-opposite reaction on him, he'd be pancaking it. BUT. It's more like putting a huge air bag under the X-wing, and then inflating it (to use a completely mundane example in an attempt to illustrate what I mean....hopefully it worked).

Yeah, in the Empire Strikes Back it's almost as if Yoda were using a crane . . .

57 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

ETA: It’s possible to have a strong discussion about the objective measures of a movie, and even to disagree about some of them, without insulting those who disagree, or engaging in boorish behavior. But to have that discussion, one needs to have knowledge of the subject matter, and it’s hard to get that by way of repeating second- or third-hand information that may or may not be accurate or born of a subjective reaction to the work.

Ironically, you insult them and act boorishly because they don't play by your rules. If they feel that the discussion works under different rules (judging TLJ by inductive reasoning and inference from what they know of it) who are you to say that's insufficient? They don't have to please you or even engage with you. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I'm bothering trying to get through to a zealot.

Listen can we just move away from the TLJ, the debate is more stagnant than the western front. The new EU is unoriginal and feels like it rolled off a industry assembly line while the old EU is as mindboggling as the old doctor strange.

10 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Ironically, you insult them and act boorishly because they don't play by your rules. If they feel that the discussion works under different rules (judging TLJ by inductive reasoning and inference from what they know of it) who are you to say that's insufficient? They don't have to please you or even engage with you. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I'm bothering trying to get through to a zealot.

You keep accusing me of “attacks” and “insults.” Where?

But, I get it...you’re fine with people arguing facts without having any. If pointing out that someone willfully ignorant of the subject matter insulting others who are familiar with it is uninformed and poor form is “zealotry,” what, pray tell, would you call a crusade to “prevent others from making the same mistake” even before making that so-called “mistake?”

I’ll say this much, though...at this point, I’ve honestly lost track of what you’re trying to “get through” to me. Is it that I should accept uninformed opinion as the fact it’s presented as?