The card says spend one resource to return one of your units that would be destroyed to your hand. In the action window where this would happen, you could only return one unit because you only have one altar of khaine, right?

I'd suggest sending it to James, but if I had to hazard a guess that each destruction of a unit was an opportunity to use this card.

I would think it would depend on the circumstances of destruction. If all your units are destroyed by one effect (Troll Vomit, for example) then I think there's only one window and, therefore, you could only return one unit. If, on the other hand, you have multiple units destroyed by different effects, then you could return one unit per effect.

RM

Im not necessarily talking about card effects, moreso than im talking about combat damage and multiples of units taking enough damage to destroy them and instead putting them back into his hand

Harlock said:

I believe it's on the same vein as Dwarf Ranges, so you could use it as many times as it's actions requirement triggers.

So yes, you could return multiple creatures into your hand.

By the rullings, normally it can't be use more than once per copy of altar of khaine, each time units are going to be destroyed :

As actually defined in the rulling "If one of your units would be destroyed" is a stated trigger for altar of khaine and the action of the altar of khaine is an response action (conditional action) defined in the rulling.

- During application damage of the battlefield phase all damage are applied at same time and all units are destroyed at the same time.

- During troll vomit/ Verena/Khaine's wrath/... all units are destroyed at the same time

in the definition of an action, each time you have a wording who looks like :

"During / when / ... X do Y"

You can only do Y once per copy of card when X occured.

It can't be the same for Dwarf ranger because Dwarf Ranger effect is not an action it's a "forced"

Shindulus said:

I don't agree your interpretation here. Why they died in the same time there still will be X number of trigger conditions as X of your units died. In this case the difference between Action and Forced is only that you could choose if you want to use the effect or not.

And the difference is also that there is a specific rule for triggered action and not for forced effect.

But I agree also with your interpratation of the triggered so I can't give a correct answer ;-).

But I really think the "spirit" of the rules is to allow only one use of altar of khaine if multiple units are destroyed at the "same time".

It's the destruction of an unit card that triggers "Altar of Khaine", not the card effect destroying the unit. Thus, even if 1 card destroy all your units, you can bring them back all... if you've got enough resources for them.

Shindulus said:

Then the "spirit" is way different from the wording. The trigger should then be "when one or more of your units [...] return one of those units in your hand".

Even that's not a problem of spirit :

- In the case of supa : each unit are destroyed at the same time and each destruction trigger a window to use Altar of Khaine that mean that if you have X unit destroyed at the same time you have X pile of LiFo action to solve at the same time.

By the rules you can not have X pile (X = 2 or more) of actions at same time.

Because you have to answer to an action by another action and solve each action of the pile before playing a new separated action

Demonstration :

- event that make X units going to be destroyed

- Activate altar of khaine

- You try to Activate altar of khaine (but it is not legal because you are playing altar of khaine in response of the altar of khaine and not to the fact that X units are going to be destroyed)

So you solve altar of Khaine then you solve the event that make X units going to be destroyed and it's to late to play Altar of kaine again (because the event that destroy X unit is solved).

Sorry for my poor english and i hope that it is possible to understand me

Shindulus - In fact, no, it's not a problem. The Altar allows the player to get a unit " that would be destroyed " back into his hand. The chosen tense is important here.

Player A plays Troll Vomit.

Every unit is [going to be] destroyed (let's say 3 units for Player B).

Player B pays 1, in response of the Troll Vomit effect, to trigger the Altar Effect and target Unit 1.

Player A does nothing.

Player B pays 1, in response of the previous Altar Effect (before its resolution), and target Unit 2.

Player A does nothing.

Player B pays once again 1, in response, and target Unit 3.

Player A does nothing.

Player B does nothing.

Resolution: Player B gets Unit 3 back into his hand, Player B gets Unit 2 back into his hand, Player B gets Unit 1 back into his hand, every units in play is destroyed.

Supa said:

This last altar response, is not legal because it is made in response of an Altar as you say (and the only way you can play an altar is in response of its trigger)

Shindulus said:

It is legal.

I can play any Action: (with a double dot, omitting thus [playing] Characters or Support) in response to any Action. The trigger (and target), the "soon-to-be-destroyed" unit [2 or 3 in my demonstration] is valid. Thus, I can play the effect of the Altar Action: in response to any other Action: (previous Altar activation here).

(I've only used bold to keep the double dots visible.)

With what you just say you are assuming that an action with a trigger spread this trigger to the next action, I am ok with your assuption. (even if there is nothing that can say that your assuption is correct or not)

So that mean that for that trigger you are using twice a time a same copy of a card and it is not legal .

(and no matter if the trigger concern 1 or more units there is only one trigger spread)

yeah more than 1 can go back to hand in response, but the Units must ask nicely and behave, or else they're turning this car around and heading back RIGHT NOW.

No, it's not the same trigger.

The supposed destruction of the soon-to-be-destructed Unit 1 is the first Trigger.

The supposed destruction of the soon-to-be-destructed Unit 2 is the second Trigger.

The supposed destruction of the soon-to-be-destructed Unit 3 is the third Trigger.

At every step, the trigger and the target of each Action: are valids.

If you want to compare it with an another card, you can look at the Dwarf Ranger. It can be triggered three times (is thrice an actual word?) if 3 dwarf units are destroyed in the same time. It may be the same effect destroying the 3 (but we don't really care) but it's not the same Trigger triggering the Dwarf Ranger effect 3 times: it's 3 separate destructions.

So you are creating multiple LiFo pile at the same times and this is not possible, by definition of their construction.

It's just all about logic.

You can not compare it with dwarf ranger as there is nothing equivalent for forced effect that mention that you can not use a forced effect more than once per copy of a card, for a given trigger.

I'm not creating multiple piles. I'm doing it in one and only one pile. I'll expand my precedent demonstration here with a few comments. Please bear with the repetitions. Keep in mind that the resolution only occurs when both players skip their chance to do an additional action.

Player A plays Troll Vomit.

Every unit is [going to be] destroyed (let's say 3 units for Player B).

Player B pays 1, in response of the Troll Vomit effect, to trigger the Altar Effect and target Unit 1. The valid trigger is the supposed destruction of the Unit 1. This is the first time the Altar is triggered by this Trigger.

Player A does nothing.

Player B pays 1, in response of the previous Altar Effect (before its resolution), and target Unit 2. The valid trigger is the supposed destruction of the Unit 2. This is the first time the Altar is triggered by this Trigger.

Player A does nothing.

Player B pays once again 1, in response, and target Unit 3. The valid trigger is the supposed destruction of the Unit 3. This is the first time the Altar is triggered by this Trigger.

Player A does nothing.

Player B does nothing.

Resolution: Player B gets Unit 3 back into his hand, Player B gets Unit 2 back into his hand, Player B gets Unit 1 back into his hand, every units in play are destroyed.

Supa said:

You make the assuption that the trigger you call : the supposed destruction of the Unit 2 is spread throught the first activation of altar, whereas it is not even its trigger.

You can only play action in response to the last action OR to the trigger of your action.

The way you are playing it, is like you can play an action in response to a trigger and to an action, that don't even happened at the same time.

You're saying that a player can only add an Action: in a LIFO pile if this action target the last Action: or card added to the LIFO ?

If yes, please continue. If not, ignore the following argument and please rephrase. I'm having some trouble understanding your last plea.

Can you please redirect me to the page and paragraph where you have read this rules ?

I've just read the "Playing an Action In Response" section (p. 15 in the rulebook) and it doesn't mention anything like it. Au contraire , it does state "Actions can also be played or triggered in response to other actions" without any restriction (omitting playings Characters and Support who are not permitted).

The new Action: in the pile doesn't have to target to directly previous card or effect in the pile.

Is that your only gripe with my demonstration ? If yes, and if it does verify you can play an Action not targetting the previous effect, you should be okay with my previous demonstration of using the Altar to save multiple units "soon-to-be-destroyed-at-the-same-time ?

An action can only be played in response of the last one or in response of the good trigger, I am not talking about targeting.

You play an action in response of an action AND in response of a trigger (both coming from two different card/effect played at different moment). That's not correct, it has no meaning in the rules.

And Player B does play every one of his response in response of the previous one. Thus preserving the LIFO chain.

When Player B uses for the second time the Altar in response to a second Trigger for a second Target (Unit 2), the Trigger and the Target are both still valid. Unit 2 is still to be destroyed by Troll Vomit. The Trigger is still there. In the LIFO chain, Player B is doing an Action: in response to another Action: and that's valid too.

Every step is a valid one.

I'm off for now, but please state a precise point of the rulebook (or the FAQ) that invalids the previous demonstration.

Supa said:

I am going to be off too :

When player B uses for the second time Altar in response to a second Trigger for a second Target you are also playing this alter in response of the previous altar. (So you are playing an action in response of two different things cf. rulebooks "an action is played in response of another action" or trigger by extend of the rullings)

You can not say :

"In response of my altar activation I play Altar in response of the trigger".

You are wrong on this one Shindulus, believe me.

If there are 3 triggers (because 3 unit would be destroyed) the other 2 trigger won't miracolusly disappear if you response for the first one. They are still there, so they could be responded.

How triggers work is almost the same for Forced effects and Actions (except that you could not respond to Forced effects)