17 minutes ago, Okapi said:

True, but a ships worth is dependent on how it compares to other ships. There's no denying the E-Wing ship ability is strong, or whether fully modded torps are powerful. The question is how much it is worth. It has been put forward to here that it cannot be priced all that much lower because three fully modded Proton Torpedoes, even on I2 ships, would somehow be too much. I disagree, partly because there are lots and lots of lists that would walk all over three Knaves with Protons, even lists aren't considered top tier.

Also, four Proton Scimitars and Jendon is a thing. Also fully modded, same initiative, an extra shot, and throw in three reds and a focus at I3 from Jendon as well.

We'll see what happens.

R7 Astromech (3 points)

When defending against a target you have locked, you may reroll 1 defense die.

Unfortunately, the Resistance stole all the 1.0 R7s.

29 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

R7 Astromech (3 points)

When defending against a target you have locked, you may reroll 1 defense die.

Unfortunately, the Resistance stole all the 1.0 R7s.

That's going to be of somewhat limited use as the game progresses when it may be harder to get a lock because of the Range 1 restriction. Considering the R7 was designed specifically to work with the E-wing, maybe make it E-wing only, with something that tweaks the linked actions for synergy? IE Boost or Barrel Roll links to an Evade? Or what about turning the S-Loops white?

On 11/16/2018 at 7:49 AM, Kleeg005 said:

Maybe if the E-Wing had been given a Weapons Hardpoint, a la the Scyk and the T70? That feels more thematic: expensive, customized, capable.

It's a cool thought, just might step on T70 toes a little bit. I mean, not too much, since the Ewing is currently Rebel faction locked.

But, from what I understand canonically, new republic E's were pretty much torps and lasers only, with occasional ion cannons.

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

It's a cool thought, just might step on T70 toes a little bit. I mean, not too much, since the Ewing is currently Rebel faction locked.

But, from what I understand canonically, new republic E's were pretty much torps and lasers only, with occasional ion cannons.

AFAIK there's no "official" source that gives the E-wing an ion cannon. The only possible suggestion of it I can recall was Knave Leader in Dark Empire giving an order to "arm all turbos and ion cannon." There's also ONE frame in Dark Empire that shows an E-wing appearing to fire from its wing root, but that's pretty controversial.

I COULD see an argument where the dorsal cannon might be modular (in the Dark Empire line work the gun is definitely different from the wing guns; it's barrel is considerably longer and thicker, and has a cup-shaped structure near the firing tip that's missing from the wing guns) but I'm not aware of any time that was actually done.

On 11/15/2018 at 7:31 PM, Hugeman said:

If protorps go up to where they should be (12pts) then a price drop to 55 would be fine.

100% agree, drop ththe cost of the ship and increase the cost of Pro torps

On 11/16/2018 at 3:15 AM, Hiemfire said:

Not by too much if at all. Being able to fit 3x with prots in a list is not something that should happen. First pass double modded prots with that dial... /cring

Just saying, you can easily have 3 Tie Bombers or even better Imperial ships with triple proton torps and double mods on the merge.

Colonel Jendon (46)

“Redline” (44)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Proton Bombs (5)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Seismic Charges (3)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

This is in no way even optimized, and nobody has a problem with this being possible...

But you shouldn’t have 3 I1 E-Wings able to do that??

God beware that the worst rebel generic would get any help, because that would immediately break the game.

18 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Just saying, you can easily have 3 Tie Bombers or even better Imperial ships with triple proton torps and double mods on the merge.

Colonel Jendon (46)

“Redline” (44)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Proton Bombs (5)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Seismic Charges (3)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

This is in no way even optimized, and nobody has a problem with this being possible...

But you shouldn’t have 3 I1 E-Wings able to do that??

God beware that the worst rebel generic would get any help, because that would immediately break the game.

Now compare the dials, proportion of critable hp, agility and primary attacks of you're examples to the E-Wing's. Throw in that both of the ships in your example list are too cheap for what they do and maybe you'll see why I have an issue with the E-Wings being able to run 3x with torps period, not juts Prots. (Swift 3x Redline...) E-Wings need something yes, but a points reduction on the lowest initiative pilots isn't it (on Corran and Gavin sure, Horn down by 5, Gavin down by 2). A Tech slot would go a long way to making them viable.

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Now compare the dials, proportion of critable hp, agility and primary attacks of you're examples to the E-Wing's. Throw in that both of the ships in your example list are too cheap for what they do and maybe you'll see why I have an issue with the E-Wings being able to run 3x with torps period, not juts Prots. (Swift 3x Redline...) E-Wings need something yes, but a points reduction on the lowest initiative pilots isn't it (on Corran and Gavin sure, Horn down by 5, Gavin down by 2). A Tech slot would go a long way to making them viable.

3x Starwings & Jendon fits with Proton Torpedoes. Only 2 agility, but an extra hull. Gunboats can't K-Turn, but they've got SLAM to get out fast, and they can reload, to have more than just two Torpedo shots. The build also can afford both Advanced SLAM and Fire Control System, or an increase to Rhos, or so forth. The gunboats don't have a decent Range 1 gun, but Jendon does, and those Reloads might matter. 2e Lambda shuttles are some of the most-improved ships in the game, and not to be hand-waived away.

There are lists close enough to 3x E-Wings with Proton Torpedoes that 3x E-Wings with Proton Torpedoes probably isn't some hard line we can't cross.

But it's also exactly where E-Wings ought to have started. The initial points lists for 2e should have been treated as an Open Beta Test. Things which may or may not be problems like 3x E-Wings should have been open to the community, because FFG's internal playtesting is overworked and underpaid and sometimes you just need lots of reps from the community at large. Folks would be willing to accept high-priced E-Wings, expensive enough to not allow 3x with Torpedoes, if we'd been able to see first hand that is a problem on the table. Likewise, perhaps 3x Torp Es isn't an issue, and they'd still need lower points costs to be viable.

Starting them right on the line is the only way to actually test if it's a real problem, and then be willing to change them fairly quickly if they are.

//

Tech Slot is absurd, if you're ruling out 3x Torpedoes. 3x Grey Bombers each with Proton Torpedos and an E-Wing with Targeting Synchronizer (presuming a 6 point cost--doubled 1e) and R3 has 7 wiggle points. That'll do more damage against low-agility targets, but a bit less against high agility, but with a lot more flexibility than 57 point Knaves with Torpedoes.

I think it would be cool and reasonable that E-Wings get tech upgrades. Yes they aren't sequel triology ships but they are supposed to be advanced next-gen fighters right? Frankly speaking in lore the first T-70 prototype was made before the battle of Jakku, so really if a older ship can get a tech slot I don't see why not let the E-wing get it to. Would be a cool way to help make it stronger for the rebels being the only ship to take tech upgrades. And yeah, a price reduction would be nice as well.

The thing to me, and maybe everyone, is I look at the Tie Defender and I can't help but wish the E could put up more of a fight against it. Would have been awesome if Corran had force charges

especially since he is a force user and jedi in legends but no, he doesn't get any...or Kyle.

5 hours ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

especially since he is a force user and jedi in legends but no, he doesn't get any...or Kyle.

Corran was also an X-wing pilot who actually owned his X-wing, and I can only recall a single instance of Rogue Squadron operating E-wings (Crimson Empire II, I believe). Yet here we are.

Here’s a thought using Corran’s astromech. It wouldn’t help the E-wing in general, but would give Corran a boost:

Whistler (Astromech)

When utilizing an ability that requires having your target in your Bull’s-Eye Arc you may waive the requirement.

This would synergize with Corran by turning him into his 1.0 version, as well as benefit EPTs requiring Bull’s-Eye (IE Marksman). If this is too over-powered as a passive buff you can implement a limited number of Charges.

On 11/16/2018 at 8:32 PM, Ambaryerno said:

That's going to be of somewhat limited use as the game progresses when it may be harder to get a lock because of the Range 1 restriction. Considering the R7 was designed specifically to work with the E-wing, maybe make it E-wing only, with something that tweaks the linked actions for synergy? IE Boost or Barrel Roll links to an Evade? Or what about turning the S-Loops white?

In my play, that doesnt seem to be an issue. You arnt turning into the enemy, you are zooming past them and getting a defensive token, then boosting out of range and locking, then resetting for another pass. When you include that this version doesnt discard the lock, the R1 bubble is a non-issue.

On 11/17/2018 at 6:32 PM, Hiemfire said:

Now compare the dials, proportion of critable hp, agility and primary attacks of you're examples to the E-Wing's. Throw in that both of the ships in your example list are too cheap for what they do and maybe you'll see why I have an issue with the E-Wings being able to run 3x with torps period, not juts Prots. (Swift 3x Redline...) E-Wings need something yes, but a points reduction on the lowest initiative pilots isn't it (on Corran and Gavin sure, Horn down by 5, Gavin down by 2). A Tech slot would go a long way to making them viable.

Come on, you know as well as me that you can even put more double modded protorps on the table if you take vanilla Bombers with Jendon or Jonus. They also can have more initiative.

I would say that you’re right with the undercosted bombers and punishers, but even if they were not a thing, 3 Proton torp Knaves would not be remotely competitive. Mobile aces can still arc-dodge them completely and other ordnance carriers would still outdo them.

There are really leagues between E-Wimgs and their opposition right now, and while others need to go up in price, they need to go down.

Give it a points drop to start.

Give it a configuration that adds a cannon slot.

Create a cannon upgrade similar to HLC that is four shots but allows crits. This cannon requires both a cannon slot and a sensor slot. Then decide whether it should be E-Wing only or allow it as a fix to B-Wings also.

......

Profit?

Well as others have said, an across the board price drop is needed.

But for Corran specifically, i wish they gave him force (1 or 2), and then made him spend a force to double tab (out of front arc, not just bullseye). That to me would be better (read: worth points investment) and more thematic to his legends story.

On 11/16/2018 at 11:53 AM, Hiemfire said:

Ya, some people lack patience. When they are confronted with choice of paying extra for something before it is made available within their chosen faction or waiting patiently those people choose option 3. Whining and threatening on the forums.

Most of our league never use the forums so 3 isn't an option for them. Unfortunately for my local group, quite a few have gone with option 4. Quit X-wing altogether. ☹️ We lost about 30% of our players from 1E to 2E. Of the remaining players only about 50% continued to play past the first month with a few potentially coming back once the January point changes hit. When asked why they quit, it was a combination of the price increases, having to buy extra product to get certain upgrades (Afterburners are a real sore spot), and the decrease in available upgrade options. Our league did gain 3 new members, but still far below our original numbers.

When Battlestar Galactica starts out I should be able to pick up a nice small core of players. My wife is already not happy when she discovered I will be playing both and getting more ships with another league night...

A 4 point price drop allows R2 FCS Knaves *3

Besides a price cut, which they should get, I’d love to see a talent like this. As far as I can tell, only E-Wings and Redline would really like it. I don’t know of anything else off the top of my head that has actions that link to a target lock.

Target Fixation (Talent)

When you would perform a ( target lock action ), if you already have a target locked, you must perform a ( focus action ) of the same difficulty instead.

Basically this talent would force you to spend your target lock or kill your target if you want to ever change your target lock. Redline can pretty much ignore the downsides, but there would be a lot of potential counter play to E-Wings equipped with this talent.

I don't see what the E-wing would like about it considering they can just use the Focus ability they already have, so this seems like a complete waste of an EPT.

5 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

Besides a price cut, which they should get, I’d love to see a talent like this. As far as I can tell, only E-Wings and Redline would really like it. I don’t know of anything else off the top of my head that has actions that link to a target lock.

Target Fixation (Talent)

When you would perform a ( target lock action ), if you already have a target locked, you must perform a ( focus action ) of the same difficulty instead.

Basically this talent would force you to spend your target lock or kill your target if you want to ever change your target lock. Redline can pretty much ignore the downsides, but there would be a lot of potential counter play to E-Wings equipped with this talent.

To put it simply, it wouldn't be taken, ever. That removes the option for them to be able to misdirecting locks to muddle with their opponent's combat information and instead hard locks them into a target till they shoot it... Kind of counter to the point of their ability.

25 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

To put it simply, it wouldn't be taken, ever. That removes the option for them to be able to misdirecting locks to muddle with their opponent's combat information and instead hard locks them into a target till they shoot it... Kind of counter to the point of their ability.

I disagree with your assessment, it effectively turns your boost/barrel roll linked to target lock in to boost/barrel roll linked to focus. I think it’s a pretty even trade off, especially if you’re not taking Proton torpedoes.

Gavin, R4 Astro, FCS, Target Fixation would be an incredibly maneuverable and powerful build. Even if you’re not getting locks on your target locked enemy, you’re getting to make use of an amazing dial with useful linked actions. If you like to try and mind game opponents with target locks, it wouldn’t be the talent to choose.

1 minute ago, Phelan Boots said:

Gavin, R4 Astro, FCS, Target Fixation would be an incredibly maneuverable and powerful build. Even if you’re not getting locks on your target locked enemy, you’re getting to make use of an amazing dial with useful linked actions. If you like to try and mind game opponents with target locks, it wouldn’t be the talent to choose. 

So you looked at 1 pilot that your idea might have a use with and assumed it would be great for every pilot in that chassis... As much as I see the range 2- infinity Lock ability as being a simile to Redline, its major down side is that you're telegraphing your target 1 or more turns in advanced. Guess what that means for your mate Gavin...

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

So you looked at 1 pilot that your idea might have a use with and assumed it would be great for every pilot in that chassis... As much as I see the range 2- infinity Lock ability as being a simile to Redline, its major down side is that you're telegraphing your target 1 or more turns in advanced. Guess what that means for your mate Gavin...

You are consistently narrow minded and jump to conclusions. I looked at all the pilots with a talent slot, and understood that such a talent would fundamentally change the way the E-Wing flys. Additionally, I can foresee playing other mind games with my opponent by locking up one of his aces and forcing him to decide if he wants to commit to a fight.

Think about a list with 3x E-Wings, all with the above build. They all lock the same target.

You think, “Ha now I can just kite away with that one ship! He’ll never get to use his target locks!”

If you do, I can just turn all of my ships on the rest of your squad. I’m getting local fire superiority. Plus I can reposition and focus every round, on one of the best dials in the game.

If that doesn’t suit your play style, that’s fine, but it would definitely get used. A ton of people moaned about the E-Wings awkward linked actions when it was first revealed. My suggested talent would effectively change the printed actions, but at a tactical price. I could have written it just let you take a focus instead of a target lock at will, but that would be way too broken on who knows what ships.