I have looked around the forums for this, but have only found that the rules seemed to have changed but no answer as to why. So here is my question:

In the Arkham Horror rulebook, during final battle, when an accumulated number of hits has reached the point to remove a doom token, any hits beyond that are reset to zero. This means that no one investigator could ever remove more than one doom token off of an ancient one. So in a 4-player game, if player 1 gives three hits, then the most player two can do is one hit to remove the token. Any beyond that are wasted because the tally is reset to zero. If he hits for two, the extra is not carried over, just as if he hits for 5, a second doom token is not removed.

Now, according to the FAQ on this site as well as the updated rules in Dunwich Horror and elsewhere, this accumulation reset is no longer part of the rule structure. It simply says the total accumulated hits needed is # of players x numbers of doom tokens. So if the 4 players do a total of 9 hits, then 2 doom tokens are removed with an extra hit carrying over to the next round. Although the final battle will still be difficult, this seems to make it quite a bit easier to remove tokens.

Was there ever any word on to why this was changed? In theory, a bigger group of investigators should have an easier time fighting an ancient one than a single investigator, but this rule change seems to make it the opposite. Since a lot of AO's make you discard or lose items, clues, trophies, etc., one well-equipped lone investigator could take down an AO in a few rounds at only one hit per doom token with no doom token cap per round. With the previous ruling of one doom token of damage max per investigator per round, a single investigator would have a very difficult, if not impossible, time beating an AO. Whereas a larger group could do more doom tokens of damage per round and succeed more easily which makes sense when you figure strength in numbers. But the new rule makes it just as easy or easier (when you figure the resources would be spread more thin amongst a larger group) for a lone investigator to beat an AO.

Just wondering if there was any official word on why this was changed or what the thoughts are for long time players. I myself have just recently got the game, but have been going over all the rules on the Wiki for about a month now in anticipation of playing and this is really the only thing that struck me as an odd change.

They weren't changed as such, the rulebook's wording was just wacky (like Avi's hairdo ), so the FAQ clarified things. IIRC, it was meant to be X times Y, with successes carrying over from the get-go.

I don't know if I can call it clarification. The original rulebook seems pretty clear that once you have enough successes equal to the players, you remove one doom token and reset the counter to zero. Another thing that makes me believe they wanted this doom token cap per attack is that they state "Unlike a normal battle, the Ancient One cannot be defeated in a single attack". Yet a single investigator vs. Yig with a high fight stat, perhaps aided by an ally and casts two shriveling spells could very well defeat him in a single attack under the new ruling. It just seems like there was definitely an intent in the original rule that got ignored or changed.

I definitely want to play by the intended rules of the creator's, and if the new way with no token cap per attack is what they truly originally intended, then I am all for it. It just seems like quite a drastic change and makes for an easier AO battle which you would think they want to keep more difficult since winning that way should be a last resort and almost impossible to do.

Thing is, under the old wording, 1-investigator final combat with Cthulhu was unwinnable (of course argument can be made it should be so). Attack, remove max 1 doomer, Cthulhu heals 1 doomer. Great .

Welcome to the Carnival, Doom Turtle! Congratulations on excavating out the BIGGEST debate from Arkham Horror's initial release years ago. I was there. There were many words and bodies.

Many interpreted the manual exactly as you did. Many of them were playing single investigators, and a single investigator, evenly modestly armed, can take down most AOs in a few rounds. (And...>cough<...Yig was ALWAYS a wuss. If you really want to give him a fighting chance, see: Kingsport Horror - Epic Final Battle.) As a result, they couldn't conceive that an Ancient Cosmic Thing could be taken down so easily, and wanted a harder Final Battle.

The other side of the debate saw it more like this: You roll. There's a counter equal to the number of players per Doom Token. You count your successes versus that counter. When they are equal (say, four successes in a four player game), you stop the the counter for THAT doom token, you stop counting your successes any higher, and you "reset the counter" back to zero for the NEXT doom token. Using whatever successes you have left from your roll, continue. The idea being if you roll 8 successes, you don't keep counting up to 5, 6, 7, etc.; you stop at 4, go back to zero, and count on the next token.

Which is apparently what FFG wanted, and fixed in the FAQ. They even told us that successes carry over between Final Battle rounds; many people would end a round by losing any extra successes not adding up to a doom token removal...again, another odd interpretation of the "back to zero" phrase.

The point is, the manual often seems written by Al Azif himself: DERANGED. Don't feel put out that we "aren't on your side". As I said, many of us lived through the months before the first FAQ, waiting for the fighting and the blood and the rats to end. If you want a harder Final Battle, play solo with more than one Investigator, try Epic Final Battles, or pick up some of the other big box expansions for some AOs that HURT.

Dam said:

::Stabs **** with hair::

Until you get Epic Battle (Kingsport) try these rules:

It takes one more success than there are the number of investigators to remove a doom token. So in a 2-investigator game, 3 successes remove a doom token. Yig would have 30 hits to die, for example.

Tibs said:

At the very least, that's a reasonable game alteration (especially considering how easy the base game AOs are).

Avi_dreader said:

Poor Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth, boohoo, yep, they need help !

NOT!

Dam said:

Oh please Dam, just because I wouldn't get *you* any help doesn't mean I shouldn't get an AO help ;'D

I should have figured this was all argued about when the revision first came out, but I couldn't find any history on it. I definitely plan on getting all the expansions (most likely in order of release) so I will eventually have the epic battle cards. I'm just glad that I'm clear on what the actual ruling is for future games.

Avi_dreader said:

Yes, especially considering that the difficulty of defeating the AOs increases proportionally as you use fewer investigators. Rather than knocking over an AO with a single investigator, that investigator now has to do 2x the work. As opposed to a 4-investigator game (who already has it a bit rough); they have to do only 25% more work now.

And Dam, yes, I tried this rule against Cthulhu and still was able to beat him (just barely!). Increasing the difficulty of AOs who are not Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth feels like the already "greatest" great old ones should not be kept as proportionally great. There's a reason Cthulhu and Yog are so tough to beat back compared to the others: they're more iconic!

Of course, with subsequent expansion AOs, the "legendary = difficult" trend falls apart... who the hell is Quachil Uttaus? OH GOD—

Tibs said:

Play my scenarios, and I *promise* you, you'll feel like the old Old Ones are legendary again :'D