So, HWK-290 pilot abilities reference ships "in your firing arc" and Talents like Selfless reference "if you are in the attack arc."

My question is does range 0 count as part of being in the firing arc?

So, if Kyle runs into the back of a friendly ship, if that friendly ship is in Kyle's arc, can he pass the focus token? Or, if a ship with Selfless is at range 0 of the attacker, but still in the arc, can they take a crit for a friend getting shot at (presuming the friend is range 1 away)?

Rules reference:

> Entry for arc on page 3 (relevent info bolded): "An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3. A ship is in an arc if any part of its base is inside that area . • Arcs are measured beyond the base of ships . The portion of any object that lies beneath a ship is not in any of those ship’s arcs" So, range 0 is bases touching, and arc is measured beyond the base, so I would say, yes, in arc abilities work at range 0 if you have arc. Also, techincally if you are at range 0, other parts of your base are still in the firing arc.

> Entry about range 0: "Range 0 does not appear on the range ruler, but is used for describing the range of objects that are physically touching." and "A ship is at range 0 of another ship if it is physically touching another ship" So it says nothing about not counting "in arc" if you are at range 0. Also, we know the firing arc must include range 0 because certain ships can attack ships in arc at range 0 (Arvel, Oincunn, and maybe Rhymer but I will not get involved and have not read the related rules references for him ? )

I guess in some sense "arc" and "range" are related concepts, but technically different things. So if there is no range mentioned, I imagine "in arc" abilities default to 0-3.

So I would say, yes . Selfless, HWK-290 abilities, and similarly worded effects work at range 0.

Thoughts?

No. Firing arcs don't extend back onto the ship base.

i would tend to agree initially, but it's a question of attack arc, not just arc.

i mean, obviously, the ship is in arc, and part of it is definitely in extension in the attack arc. i'm not so sure range 0 is part of the attack arc, though, even if it's clearly in the attack arc of ships like oicunn and arvel.

there is something to indicate it defaults to range 1-3, but it's about firing arc and not attack arc. from the rules clarification about drea renthals ability:

Q: Does a ship’s firing arc extend to to range 3 even if the weapon using that arc does not?

A: Yes. For example, if Drea Renthal (Scum, BTL-A4 Y-wing) is equipped with a Dorsal Turret [Turret], she can use her ability on ships at range 1–3 in her turret arc.

so yeah, maybe, but i don't think so. i would ask the TO. if i was the TO, i would rule against it, based on all the mentions of "attack arc" in the rules reference.

it seems like you need to meet the range requirement for an attack (1-3) for a ship to be in your attack arc.

i do believe arvel and ouicunn have attack arcs at range 0-3 because of this as well though. ?

The Drea "clarification" might mess things up, but from the baseline definition of an arc, I think it'd work.

"An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3. A ship is in an arc if any part of its base is inside that area. (Arc, p. 3)." In no way does this exclude Range 0 for something like Kyle Katarn bumping into someone else. There is literally nothing in the Arc rule which suggests that a different ship at Range 0 is NOT in arc.

8 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No. Firing arcs don't extend back onto the ship base.

This is entirely true, but I don't know if it's relevant. A ship is never in it's own firing arc, but that's a different question.

Palob: “...enemy ship in your firing arc at range 0-2.”

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

The Drea "clarification" might mess things up, but from the baseline definition of an arc, I think it'd work.

"An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3. A ship is in an arc if any part of its base is inside that area. (Arc, p. 3)." In no way does this exclude Range 0 for something like Kyle Katarn bumping into someone else. There is literally nothing in the Arc rule which suggests that a different ship at Range 0 is NOT in arc.

This is entirely true, but I don't know if it's relevant. A ship is never in it's own firing arc, but that's a different question.

It's entirely relevant for the rebel hwk abilities.

45 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's entirely relevant for the rebel hwk abilities.

It's relevant to whether they can effect themselves, but not necessarily to whether they can effect other ships. That's all I meant.

Certainly, the tone was too hostile; my bad.

3 hours ago, Innese said:

Palob: “...enemy ship in your firing arc at range 0-2.”

The problem in this one is that we know for sure the minimal purpose of this specification was to reduce the range to 2. Was it a whole another intended to exchange range 3 coverage for - possibly extraordinary - range 0 coverage? Or was it specifically not to remove the latter?

I believe ships at range 0 ought to still count as to be in firing arc. Were they not, Oucinn and Arvel ought to be able to shoot 360° at any bumped ship, as their abilities would have to override the natural requirement - for an enemy ship to be in a valid firing arc to be declared as the target - in order to work at all.

Edit: this has actually been noted by the OP and I'm not sure how have we found room to even write a couple of posts about the "issue".

Other things at range 0 of a ship can be in or out of its arc.

A ship cannot be in its own arc.

I think @thespaceinvader might have misread the OP's question as asking whether you could be in your own firing arc, rather than whether another ship at range 0 can be in your firing arc.

The answer is YES , you can be inside someone's firing arc at range 0, with the caveat that a ship is never in its own firing arc.

@nexttwelveexits : I think that @thespaceinvader had in mind to re-clarify that while a ship is at range 0 of itself and at the same time a ship cannot be in it's own firing arc, combining these two facts does not mean a ship in range 0 of a ship cannot be in the ship's arc. Just like what you've summarised. Overall, case closed, let's go home, right?

Yes I think we're all vigorously agreeing at this point though I think I did misread the question initially.