Heya,

Anybody wants to take a chance at saying how this Kata's 2 opportunity spending (name 2 ring, opponent chose one etc) can be useful ?

Seems to me like a total design fart, but I'm willing to hear in what situation(s) it can useful or if anybody can think of a special shenanigan to use it with.

The second opp spend is for gaining technique information. It's the one that matters; the other is just a bonus.

For a Scorpion, this technique allows doing a recon on a foe, by insulting them, drawing a duel, and lasting through initiative; concede turn 1, and make the apology, If the do no accept the concession, they lose a pile of honor, and if they kill you, major honor and glory hits. Remember - Scorpion live or die by duty. The duty gain is doubled for doing one's duty, and halved for Honor and Righteousness, so the honor-point loss for admitting a breach of etiquette is halved, as is the one for lying (if he needed to) in the insult. For a typical scorpion (honor in the low 30's), the duty gain exceeds the loss for honor and righteousness.

Likewise, one can use it in "friendly" duel by asking for mahō.

The other use, the one you specifically ask about, is not a worthless bonus, either - but one used for a very specific purpose: forcing the hand.

While it's not great if you're facing a stranger... if you know his highest rings, pick high & void. Either he picks void (and cannot center) or picks the high ring, and that tells you he's likely to center.

Also - not all duels need be actually fought. For first strike, first blood, or incapacity, one can admit defeat without honor loss (but still a glory hit).

Plus, it's only a rank 2, it's not supposed to be earth shattering. (Well, unless his high ring is Earth.)

Battle in the Mind is a Rank 3 Kata. It is supposed to do something for realsies.

Also, that "I see you now Mr Ninja/Mahotsukai!" use is funny, I haven't thought about that !

I always thought this was meant to be used in tandem with Predict, if you have a higher initiative, to effectively deny your opponent his TWO best Rings and/or increase your chance to potentially dump some more Strife on them...

Haven’t tested this much in a real game situation though. It seems the Predict action is not very often picked as it basically consumes your action with only a small chance of being useful, but maybe this Kata can improve the odds?

15 minutes ago, Franwax said:

I always thought this was meant to be used in tandem with Predict, if you have a higher initiative, to effectively deny your opponent his TWO best Rings and/or increase your chance to potentially dump some more Strife on them...

Haven’t tested this much in a real game situation though. It seems the Predict action is not very often picked as it basically consumes your action with only a small chance of being useful, but maybe this Kata can improve the odds?

Thing is, if you use that and predict.. you have not done much lol.

The opponent could always pick void stance to screw your whole "setup" (cant predict void).

I think overall it is a mostly useless kata.

13 minutes ago, Franwax said:

I always thought this was meant to be used in tandem with Predict, if you have a higher initiative, to effectively deny your opponent his TWO best Rings and/or increase your chance to potentially dump some more Strife on them...

You can only use this Kata in the Initiative Stage so it doesn't work with Predict unless you can go before your opponent in the first Round. That, in turn, might be a big if-if because you effectively have to burn 2 Initiative points for activating the Kata. It is pretty good if you can pull it, on the other hand.

6 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

The second opp spend is for gaining technique information. It's the one that matters; the other is just a bonus.

For a Scorpion, this technique allows doing a recon on a foe, by insulting them, drawing a duel, and lasting through initiative; concede turn 1, and make the apology, If the do no accept the concession, they lose a pile of honor, and if they kill you, major honor and glory hits. Remember - Scorpion live or die by duty. The duty gain is doubled for doing one's duty, and halved for Honor and Righteousness, so the honor-point loss for admitting a breach of etiquette is halved, as is the one for lying (if he needed to) in the insult. For a typical scorpion (honor in the low 30's), the duty gain exceeds the loss for honor and righteousness.

Likewise, one can use it in "friendly" duel by asking for mahō.

The other use, the one you specifically ask about, is not a worthless bonus, either - but one used for a very specific purpose: forcing the hand.

While it's not great if you're facing a stranger... if you know his highest rings, pick high & void. Either he picks void (and cannot center) or picks the high ring, and that tells you he's likely to center.

Also - not all duels need be actually fought. For first strike, first blood, or incapacity, one can admit defeat without honor loss (but still a glory hit).

Plus, it's only a rank 2, it's not supposed to be earth shattering. (Well, unless his high ring is Earth.)

Not convincing. Sure, the opp spending to know techniques is good (actually not that good even, but decent), the 2opp to name two rings though? It is garbage for the big rank3 duellist technique.

Total. Garbage.

It only works for the first turn lol.

You would need much better convincing than your "pick void or highest ring" example that is totally a bad move to do for 2opp during initiative.

45 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

You  can only use this Kata in the Initiative Stage so it doesn't work with Predict unless you can go before your opponent in the first Round. That, in turn, might be a big if-if beca  use you effectively have to burn 2 Initia  tive points for activating the Kata. It is prett  y g  ood if you can pull it, on the other hand.  

Yes, I did specify “if you have a higher initiative”

There are probably better uses for your Initiative roll opps, though... not saying the Kata is any good, but just that it’s how I thought it was meant to be used ?

Thing is "even" if it works with predict... Cost you 2opp and your first turn to predict.

I just don't see how much more you are advantaged considering you could have used these opp to improve your first turn and have an actual first turn.

But the idea of the discussion was to find if that kata was actually worth it considering it is (at least in intention) the big "duel kata".

I just think it fails at achieving mechanical advantage and/or narrative fun about the pick 2 rings thing..

Though, the opp spending to know opponent techniques is probably very bad mechanically, but at least I can see many narrative/fun uses to it... Not sure it is worth a rank 3 technique anyway tbh.

13 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Heya,

Anybody wants to take a chance at saying how this Kata's 2 opportunity spending (name 2 ring, opponent chose one etc) can be useful ?

Seems to me like a total design fart, but I'm willing to hear in what situation(s) it can useful or if anybody can think of a special shenanigan to use it with.

The two opps effect for Battle in the Mind is very situational. It can be useful for duels where you know exactly the opponent's plan or you are really afraid of some non-Void Shuji/ring specific Kata they could whip out on turn 1 and ruin your own duel strategy. It is interesting that this kata is amazing for a Taryu-Jiai , but only the Kuni has access to it. Great perk for them I guess, not that Taryu-Jiai are common enough to justify the purchase though.

In PvE, the secondary opp spend is good since, let's be real, only a very douchy DM will not relay an NPC's most relevant techniques to the duel with that opp usage. This will probably help a player adjust their dueling strategy (ie. opponent has Warrior/Courtier Resolve) based on what techniques they learn.

All in all though, not one of the best Kata for duelists at Rank 3, and considering it is a duel exclusive Kata... well... it is not a good purchase for optimized builds.

Yeah, knowing techniques is "fun" and can create some good narratives.

As a dm you kind of let that go obviously, you want your pc to win!

It is the ring thing, that is very questionable lol. Sure you name 2 rings but the opponent still can chose whichever he wants. So unless you also waste your first turn (and you need to win ini) using a predict action (which is piss poor)... You're not getting much done and you basically let the opponent play the first turn (albeit a non optimal first turn).

So when its the second staredown phase, you have that one turn to "make it count", but, you have no opportunities from your last turn to help you, your sword is still sheated and the opponent probably already in advance either because he gave you strife, or attacked you or simply took out his sword etc during his turn.

I mean.

It is costly for not much.

15 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

It is the ring thing, that is very questionable lol. Sure you name 2 rings but the opponent still can chose whichever he wants. So unless you also waste your first turn (and you need to win ini) using a predict action (which is piss poor)... You're not getting much done and you basically let the opponent play the first turn (albeit a non optimal first turn).

If you're going to set yourself up for a nasty turn one strike it can be useful, because it can lock your opponent out of a ring without needing to waste a turn of your own with predict.

• Assessment: Void, keep opportunities and no successes (not all that hard)
  • Spend: * Battle In The Mind (as a depends-on-opponent-in-practice suggestion, pick Void/Water)
  • Spend: * Reduce the next check TN by 1 (optional - would make predict an issue though)
• Staredown - bid 0. Opponent, you can have whatever strife you bid
  • Your opponent goes first and must switch to one of the stances.
• Opponent - does whatever they do (that's the risk)
• Your action - you can pull an iaijutsu attack or whatever, knowing you're not facing Air TN increase, Fire fitness check or Earth critical immunity on the attack.

9 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

If you're going to set yourself up for a nasty turn one strike it can be useful, because it can lock your opponent out of a ring without needing to waste a turn of your own with predict.

• Assessment: Void, keep opportunities and no successes (not all that hard)
  • Spend: * Battle In The Mind (as a depends-on-opponent-in-practice suggestion, pick Void/Water)
  • Spend: * Reduce the next check TN by 1 (optional - would make predict an issue though)
• Staredown - bid 0. Opponent, you can have whatever strife you bid
  • Your opponent goes first and must switch to one of the stances.
• Opponent - does whatever they do (that's the risk)
• Your action - you can pull an iaijutsu attack or whatever, knowing you're not facing Air TN increase, Fire fitness check or Earth critical immunity on the attack.

Either I'm misunderstanding you, or there's a not yet published erratum I missed, or that's not how Battle in the Mind works.

Just now, nameless ronin said:

Either I'm misunderstanding you, or there's a not yet published erratum I missed, or that's not how Battle in the Mind works.

Same here. I'm genuinely confused.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

Same here. I'm genuinely confused.

If it did work like that, it'd be pretty **** good. Downright broken every time you rolled a lot better on initiative than your opponent.

4 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Thing is, if you use that and predict.. you have not done much lol.

The opponent could always pick void stance to screw your whole "setup" (cant predict void).

I think overall it is a mostly useless kata.

You have shifted them 3 strife. That's not inconsequential in duels.

47 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

You have shifted them 3 strife. That's not inconsequential in duels.

How did you shift them 3 strifes?

Predict is 4, but it wont happen anyway most probably.

And with a fire initiative roll or a fire first action, you could have done 2 (or 4 of both rolls) strife on him for the cost of 1opp each roll, and still have a first turn action.

And if with all your shaenigan the opponent just decide to use water social check to say how cute your kata is, he would erase 2 strife from that "maybe" predict that cost you 2 checks to setup.

That kata is useless.

Keep trying to convince me though... I know you are think the rules as written are perfect.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

How did you shift them 3 strifes?

Predict is 4, but it wont happen anyway most probably.

And with a fire initiative roll or a fire first action, you could have done 2 (or 4 of both rolls) strife on him for the cost of 1opp each roll, and still have a first turn action.

And if with all your shaenigan the opponent just decide to use water social check to say how cute your kata is, he would erase 2 strife from that "maybe" predict that cost you 2 checks to setup.

That kata is useless.

Keep trying to convince me though... I know you are think the rules as written are perfect.

Never said they're perfect. I said you're delusional about how bad they are. Huge difference there. I really think you'd be better of with an older edition, becaus eyou absolutely do not grok where the design comes from for this one.

2 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Never said they're perfect. I said you're delusional about how bad they are. Huge difference there. I really think you'd be better of with an older edition, becaus eyou absolutely do not grok where the design comes from for this one.

you are too black and white about it. there are grey zones.

i can enjoy the system while believing it have big flaws. a topic like this one is exactly because I think that this kata needs a bit of a revision to make it more fun and useful.

i am also willing to houserule a lot of things, which, some people are not. and that is fine. but i want my houserule to be good so i am "beta testing" my ideas.

you need to understand me for what i am, this is not being delusional, this is being rational and a lover of game design.