59 minutes ago, Triangular said:

Nearly all that has been said is true. But Armada is the cooler and more impressive game!

Maybe it's just me. But for me the coolest thing in Star Wars has always been an Imperial-class Star Destroyer. Or lots of them.

Darth Vader is way more cooler at the bridge of his Super Star Destroyer, than in his TIE Advanced. In my eyes at least.

http://agaunews.com/star-wars-ships-imperial-star-destroyer/

True.

But it's pretty cool to have Luke, Wedge and Dutch blowing up **** - Darth Vader and his TIE buddies for example, or Boba and Guri (for those who were into EU at least).

5 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

True.

But it's pretty cool to have Luke, Wedge and Dutch blowing up **** - Darth Vader and his TIE buddies for example, or Boba and Guri (for those who were into EU at least).

Only one of those named (well, and half a buddy bunch) ISNT in Armada to do that ?

if you want to be a pilot - play X-Wing

if you want to be an Admiral - play Armada

if you want to be a Grand Admiral - get some blue makeup paint on and play Armada

I think a lot of it comes down to the setup cost. Realistic setup cost to get yourself the game & a (passable) fleet is close to £200.

Compare and contrast to x-wing where the core set is around £40 (IIRC the 1.0 core set was about £25 when I bought it) and you can get yourself something playable for less than £100 all in.

I know that £200 entry price for a war game isn't really that expensive, but that just goes to show (I think) that x-wing manages to reach a much wider audience by virtue of being cheap(er) to get into.

The other thing that tips in the favour of x-wing is how quick and easy it is to play a game vs armada... x-wing is very much a skirmish game, and it shows in a much quicker game time and a much smaller required play area. I could fit (and frequently did) a couple of games of x-wing on an evening after work. To do the same thing with armada? If I was lucky and nothing held me up too much I could get a game in, but oftentimes that game would finish later than I'd like.

I agree fully: armada is the better game... it's deeper and more strategic, and generally more fulfilling. However in a world where people don't have as much free time as they would like, the simpler & quicker game often wins (especially when it's also (initially) cheaper.

2 hours ago, LostFleet said:

if you want to be a Grand Admiral - get some blue makeup paint on and play Armada

"It seems I prematurely spent my wad" - Admiral Funke, after using External Racks on an anti-squadron attack against a squadron with Scatter.

I think armada would have done better if they made the ships a tad smaller & cheaper to buy, and the ruleset was more aimed at larger fleet battles with 8-12 ships per side rather than the 2-5 ship skirmishes that we got. But that might be my own bias.

13 minutes ago, Lord Tareq said:

I think armada would have done better if they made the ships a tad smaller & cheaper to buy, and the ruleset was more aimed at larger fleet battles with 8-12 ships per side rather than the 2-5 ship skirmishes that we got. But that might be my own bias.

The squadrons of Armada also are miserably fiddily, and while I started off loving Armada because of all the beautiful squads on the board, I find myself loathing them more and more.

In principle, squadron mechanics are very straightforward. But once you start playing games, the squadron game becomes a game of obnoxious millimeters with pre-measuring, measuring, moving, re-measuring, re-moving, checking again, and finally placing squads, in order to milk ranges and engagements, especially when things like Intel, Relay, Mauler's ability, Strategic, and the like are so involved. Then there's constantly marking, picking up, clicking damage, placing back, and umarking squadrons during attacks and anti-squad flak attacks.


For better or worse, squadrons are an incredibly fiddily part of this game. Games without squadrons are easily several times faster than games with squadrons, and games with 134v134 points of squadrons just take forever. They slow the game down, a lot. They are also the only thing in Armada or X-Wing that doesn't have discrete movement. In Armada ships move to a (relatively) exact position by picking one of several options via the movement tool. In X-Wing, ships move to the exact position as dictated by their chosen maneuver template. But squadrons in Armada move nebulously to a "wherever you want within this bubble" spot in a game that allows unlimited measuring and range-checking and nudging as one works toward their sqaudrons' ultimate best final position with each squadron move. Sometimes it just makes me want to just pack my stuff up and leave mid-game. I get why we all have to do it, as it's part of the game and it's part of the tactical depth players need to make use of, but holy heck is it boring and slow. It's moments like these, 13 minutes into the squadron phase of Round 2 that I think "ugh, I should have just played X-Wing tonight."


And this is all just talking about squadrons from the perspective of practical implementation. This is to say nothing of those folks who feel that squadrons are far too powerful (e.g. a question of game balance), which is a whole other topic about the nature of Armada.


tl;dr: When Armada was young, a lot of local guys begrudged and hated squadrons, and I just didn't get their complaints as I felt they were very thematic and super fun. After a few years of Armada and all the obnoxious annoying boring minutia that goes into how squadrons play and are managed on the table, I'm right there with them now.

XW is cheaper to start and get going, has a simple ruleset but get more complex (and unbalanced - less so in 2e) with upgrades.

Armada initial buy in is much higher and a more complex ruleset. However, the upgrades tend to be more balanced and the ruleset is more elegant. Armada - the thinking man's plastic spaceship game.

Then again, I love Imperial Assault and think Legion is heresy!

Also, everything in X-wing is pre-painted and I know numerous X-Wing players that have stated they wouldn't play X-Wing if they had to paint the ships. Having/Desiring to paint Armada squads is intimidating to many.

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

The squadrons of Armada also are miserably fiddily, and while I started off loving Armada because of all the beautiful squads on the board, I find myself loathing them more and more.

In principle, squadron mechanics are very straightforward. But once you start playing games, the squadron game becomes a game of obnoxious millimeters with pre-measuring, measuring, moving, re-measuring, re-moving, checking again, and finally placing squads, in order to milk ranges and engagements, especially when things like Intel, Relay, Mauler's ability, Strategic, and the like are so involved. Then there's constantly marking, picking up, clicking damage, placing back, and umarking squadrons during attacks and anti-squad flak attacks.


For better or worse, squadrons are an incredibly fiddily part of this game. Games without squadrons are easily several times faster than games with squadrons, and games with 134v134 points of squadrons just take forever. They slow the game down, a lot. They are also the only thing in Armada or X-Wing that doesn't have discrete movement. In Armada ships move to a (relatively) exact position by picking one of several options via the movement tool. In X-Wing, ships move to the exact position as dictated by their chosen maneuver template. But squadrons in Armada move nebulously to a "wherever you want within this bubble" spot in a game that allows unlimited measuring and range-checking and nudging as one works toward their sqaudrons' ultimate best final position with each squadron move. Sometimes it just makes me want to just pack my stuff up and leave mid-game. I get why we all have to do it, as it's part of the game and it's part of the tactical depth players need to make use of, but holy heck is it boring and slow. It's moments like these, 13 minutes into the squadron phase of Round 2 that I think "ugh, I should have just played X-Wing tonight."


And this is all just talking about squadrons from the perspective of practical implementation. This is to say nothing of those folks who feel that squadrons are far too powerful (e.g. a question of game balance), which is a whole other topic about the nature of Armada.


tl;dr: When Armada was young, a lot of local guys begrudged and hated squadrons, and I just didn't get their complaints as I felt they were very thematic and super fun. After a few years of Armada and all the obnoxious annoying boring minutia that goes into how squadrons play and are managed on the table, I'm right there with them now.

Yeah, pretty much.

Squadrons are very rewarding once you have played a 100+ games, but they require another hard-to-learn skill set entirely.

They frustrated me no end for a long time. Then I mastered their use, and now they are the key to clubbing 95% of other players

(and no I don't mean their power level, just that there are so very many complex interactions, and one little mistake can snowball so badly)

4 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

The squadrons of Armada also are miserably fiddily, and while I started off loving Armada because of all the beautiful squads on the board, I find myself loathing them more and more.

In principle, squadron mechanics are very straightforward. But once you start playing games, the squadron game becomes a game of obnoxious millimeters with pre-measuring, measuring, moving, re-measuring, re-moving, checking again, and finally placing squads, in order to milk ranges and engagements, especially when things like Intel, Relay, Mauler's ability, Strategic, and the like are so involved. Then there's constantly marking, picking up, clicking damage, placing back, and umarking squadrons during attacks and anti-squad flak attacks.


For better or worse, squadrons are an incredibly fiddily part of this game. Games without squadrons are easily several times faster than games with squadrons, and games with 134v134 points of squadrons just take forever. They slow the game down, a lot. They are also the only thing in Armada or X-Wing that doesn't have discrete movement. In Armada ships move to a (relatively) exact position by picking one of several options via the movement tool. In X-Wing, ships move to the exact position as dictated by their chosen maneuver template. But squadrons in Armada move nebulously to a "wherever you want within this bubble" spot in a game that allows unlimited measuring and range-checking and nudging as one works toward their sqaudrons' ultimate best final position with each squadron move. Sometimes it just makes me want to just pack my stuff up and leave mid-game. I get why we all have to do it, as it's part of the game and it's part of the tactical depth players need to make use of, but holy heck is it boring and slow. It's moments like these, 13 minutes into the squadron phase of Round 2 that I think "ugh, I should have just played X-Wing tonight."


And this is all just talking about squadrons from the perspective of practical implementation. This is to say nothing of those folks who feel that squadrons are far too powerful (e.g. a question of game balance), which is a whole other topic about the nature of Armada.


tl;dr: When Armada was young, a lot of local guys begrudged and hated squadrons, and I just didn't get their complaints as I felt they were very thematic and super fun. After a few years of Armada and all the obnoxious annoying boring minutia that goes into how squadrons play and are managed on the table, I'm right there with them now.

Something something squadron plates ;D




Also, I agree 100%

After playing a few Vassal games, I am finding squadrons much easier in that setting vs on a physical board. I love being able to bring up the range bands.

3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Yeah, pretty much.

Squadrons are very rewarding once you have played a 100+ games, but they require another hard-to-learn skill set entirely.

They frustrated me no end for a long time. Then I mastered their use, and now they are the key to clubbing 95% of other players

(and no I don't mean their power level, just that there are so very many complex interactions, and one little mistake can snowball so badly)

Not sure he's even talking about that, so much, as the physical 'fiddliness' of them to get their proper value.

7 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

After playing a few Vassal games, I am finding squadrons much easier in that setting vs on a physical board. I love being able to bring up the range bands.

And part of it is definitely this.

Playing squadrons in VASSAL is not nearly as unpleasant as playing them in person. Some of the issues do get solved by the squadron 'sideboards' - as seen above - notably tracking hitpoints and activations. But for physical squadrons, you are still stuck measuring each range interaction distinctly, and trying to squeeze a ruler into tight spots with piles of plastic in the way.

VASSAL you just right-click and pull up range bands, and *pow*, done. Can instantly see all the ranges from the squadron to everything else - no collisions with a ruler, no measuring each thing distinctly. All the information to get the right position, instantly.

It helps a lot. Probably cuts the time needed for the squadron game down to 1/3 or so of the physical version of the same thing.

I would have favoured slightly smaller models & more per game so it feels more like a fleet than a task force.

21 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

It's this, coupled with the fact that even in the healthiest of Armada communities it's still probably easier to find opponents and events for X-Wing than it is for Armada. The X-Wing Community is just much, much larger than Armada, and since it's faster a big group can get together on a set night and play multiple pick-up games each, where Armada's length generally requires scheduling a game with a particular opponent. The online community and resources for X-Wing are also much, much greater. You can go to Twitch or YouTube and find hundreds of X-Wing games with excellent commentators and graphics. It's very hard to find a streamed game of Armada, and when you do, it's typically not edited and has no (or terrible commentary), meaning it's a 2 hour ordeal that's about as fun as watching paint dry while you piss glass, even if you deeply understand and love the game of Armada.

Now, if Armada had been first and if Armada had the current support that X-Wing had and vice versa, would Armada be more popular than X-Wing? Hmm, dunno. Maybe not.

The X-wing community may be bigger but the Armada community is much friendlier. I'm not a violent person but if some of the people on the X-wing boards spoke to me in real life the way they speak to other people on the forum, I'd be hard pushed not to smack them in the mouth. There really are some deeply unpleasant characters in that community with very little in the way of social skills or manners. There's often a nasty pack mentality too.

X wing is more popular because it was first, the ships are more affordable individually, the rules are simpler and there's usually some new fun toy just around the corner.

I actually like the fact that Armada doesn't have a new "must have" ship every 5 minutes but the complete lack of new releases is slowly killing the game. Armada and X wing are two opposite extremes.

Rather than release a massively expensive SSD which may or may not fit into games and make them more fun I would rather they had released a few more medium ships. I only play Imperials so I can't speak for the rebels but at the moment if we want to use medium ships we are faced with a choice of a Victory class star Destroyer which is too slow or an Interdictor which has all the fire power of a wet lettuce. I think fixing that issue would have been the way to go.

As it is, it would not surprise me if when the SSD comes out they wrap up the game in the same way they wrapped up the Star Wars living card game.

5 hours ago, Bolshevik65 said:

The X-wing community may be bigger but the Armada community is much friendlier. I'm not a violent person but if some of the people on the X-wing boards spoke to me in real life the way they speak to other people on the forum, I'd be hard pushed not to smack them in the mouth. There really are some deeply unpleasant characters in that community with very little in the way of social skills or manners. There's often a nasty pack mentality too.

X wing is more popular because it was first, the ships are more affordable individually, the rules are simpler and there's usually some new fun toy just around the corner.

I actually like the fact that Armada doesn't have a new "must have" ship every 5 minutes but the complete lack of new releases is slowly killing the game. Armada and X wing are two opposite extremes.

Rather than release a massively expensive SSD which may or may not fit into games and make them more fun I would rather they had released a few more medium ships. I only play Imperials so I can't speak for the rebels but at the moment if we want to use medium ships we are faced with a choice of a Victory class star Destroyer which is too slow or an Interdictor which has all the fire power of a wet lettuce. I think fixing that issue would have been the way to go.

As it is, it would not surprise me if when the SSD comes out they wrap up the game in the same way they wrapped up the Star Wars living card game.

Weird.

The X-wing people I've met IRL are exactly as friendly as Armada players.

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Weird.

The X-wing people I've met IRL are exactly as friendly as Armada players.

The online X-wing community is a lot more aggressive, but IRL very similar in composition.

3 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

The online X-wing community is a lot more aggressive, but IRL very similar in composition.

The Vassal X-wing crowd seems friendly enough.

But yeah, the X-wing forums aren't really a place for good debate.

6 hours ago, Green Knight said:

But yeah, the X-wing forums aren't really a place for good debate.

I'm not even convinced the Armada forums are a better place for debate. I can recall some pretty passive-aggressive and heated and dismissive and arrogance laden discussions in our past (Squadrons, Demo, Reikaan, Large Ships, will they ever make a Huge Ship?, Ackbar, any rules debates, Lyraeus' tone, etc.).

In real life I agree that both communities are pretty much full of equally warm and welcoming people, and my impression is that online that tonal quality of the discussions is about the same in both communities. The difference, I think, is that for the past year there's basically been nothing to talk about regarding Armada and those few who remain in the active discussion are the die-hards who bleed love for this game and largely tend to know one another. So you'll get an amplification perception reading the X-Wing forums, just because there are so many more voices and so much more content now relative to Armada.

38 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I'm not even convinced the Armada forums are a better place for debate. I can recall some pretty passive-aggressive and heated and dismissive and arrogance laden discussions in our past (Squadrons, Demo, Reikaan, Large Ships, will they ever make a Huge Ship?, Ackbar, any rules debates, Lyraeus' tone, etc.).

In real life I agree that both communities are pretty much full of equally warm and welcoming people, and my impression is that online that tonal quality of the discussions is about the same in both communities. The difference, I think, is that for the past year there's basically been nothing to talk about regarding Armada and those few who remain in the active discussion are the die-hards who bleed love for this game and largely tend to know one another. So you'll get an amplification perception reading the X-Wing forums, just because there are so many more voices and so much more content now relative to Armada.

I've contributed to some of the heated debate over TLJ... I came to this conclusion myself when it comes to Star Wars fans.

If Armada was first there would be no objectives, no commanders, and there would be motherflippin' green dice.... so maybe your community would be a little larger cause of "first" but your game would be a lot weaker and less interesting as a result... to sum up x-wing is cheap beer out back the seven eleven, armada is fine wine and a steak dinner

Both games have their merits. I'll surely use X-Wing to hook my kids on wargaming once I made them warch Star Wars (that's still a few years in the future unfrtunately). Then, when they are older I'm gonna show them Armada to make them total fanatics