So, does Epic fail because Huge ships are too big and too expensive??

Would Epic do better if "Epic Ships" fell in the 50 meter range--kinda too big for standard, but not so big that the models have a $100+ price point??

Then they would no be so "epic"

Maybe Epic ships could be more like in the background, so not a model, but part of the playmat. So we could fly over an ISD (or part of an ISD) attacking turrents and generators....wasnt't a mod that battle?

I don't really think Epic failed, it just...fizzled. A lot of people bought Epic ships (mainly for the cards honestly) but never played or played rarely. I think a main issue for me was feeling that the Epic ships themselves were so weak- they died quickly or didn't have the offense to justify taking them over something like a Decimator or YT. Bump up the Epic ships stats, make them worthwhile to play by making them truly epic in natural rather than just big targets, and then we might see more of an Epic scene. The monetary issue was never a problem for me- the huge ships were worth the price in model terms, just failed in gameplay terms.

Couldn't you have just kept this question in the What Happened to Epic thread that is literally only four threads down from this (at time of reading)?

Y'know, the one with actual discussion of why Epic didn't work so well and why it's more than just expensive ship models?

A while ago I was playing around with the flight path system and game design and mocked up som extra large bases, 100mm across. IMO, the size didn’t work so well, at least with the regular move templates, even a 1 speed was a massive change in position, so I think extra large ships would require a new movement system, same as huge ships do, and then you’re kinda defeating the purpose.

Tiny bases (20mm) though would have some potential for actual seeking weapons or tiny droid craft, or something.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Couldn't you have just kept this question in the What Happened to Epic thread that is literally only four threads down from this (at time of reading)?

Y'know, the one with actual discussion of why Epic didn't work so well and why it's more than just expensive ship models?

I felt that it was different enough of an idea to warrant it's own topic. That topic is "Is FFG going to do Epic soon?"

This is "What about a new class of ships to make Epic viable?"

1 hour ago, Ikka said:

I don't really think Epic failed, it just...fizzled. A lot of people bought Epic ships (mainly for the cards honestly) but never played or played rarely. I think a main issue for me was feeling that the Epic ships themselves were so weak- they died quickly or didn't have the offense to justify taking them over something like a Decimator or YT. Bump up the Epic ships stats, make them worthwhile to play by making them truly epic in natural rather than just big targets, and then we might see more of an Epic scene. The monetary issue was never a problem for me- the huge ships were worth the price in model terms, just failed in gameplay terms.

Personally I blame FFG for the fizzle. One release a year and then never talk it up is not a way to build interest.

Smaller ships, and thus more regular releases, would be a far better way to keep some sort of non-Standard format alive.

I liked the idea, I just never had the time to learn to play let alone actually play. Standard took up my limited play time and still does.

I did buy all the ships though. They're awesome.

wouldn't mind seeing some extra large ships in the standard game. That could be cool.

I played very few epic games and here is why.

1. Game length.... Games took forever.

2. Games could be decided fairly early and then it was a slow grind down of ebevitability. A standard game ends much sooner even if you screw the pooch you can play another game after.

3. Was not satisfying to fly epic ships, they just slowly lumberred around. Was just not as fun as flying none epic ships. I like fast exciting ships and blocking people... Slow lumbering ramming ships are just not for me.

4. I only have 9 dial upgrades per faction, and only one double set of coloured bases and I like all my **** to look alike.

I only really like the gozanti because the docked ship mechanic was cool and fun.

For me it failed because it was just not as fun as standard play... Would much rather have just played a larger point total game on a bigger board with 0 epic ships, not because they were to expensive more they just are not fun

9 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I played very few epic games and here is why.

1. Game length.... Games took forever.

2. Games could be decided fairly early and then it was a slow grind down of ebevitability. A standard game ends much sooner even if you screw the pooch you can play another game after.

3. Was not satisfying to fly epic ships, they just slowly lumberred around. Was just not as fun as flying none epic ships. I like fast exciting ships and blocking people... Slow lumbering ramming ships are just not for me.

1. However, most X-Wing at game stores is done in a mini tournament form, which actually takes longer than a single epic game. People make the argument about length of play but then go play longer.

2. This is pretty fair. It happens much like standard play, just takes longer because more stuff

The rest is just personal preference, which is what it is. Which is part of why I think 2.0 format should allow huge ships but not mandate them. If properly balanced (unlike 1.0) there should be pros and cons to both strategies. In 1.0 it was bad to bring a huge ship so they required you bring one.

Smaller? No, we must go bigger! https://imgur.com/a/85kajcY

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

1. However, most X-Wing at game stores is done in a mini tournament form, which actually takes longer than a single epic game. People make the argument about length of play but then go play longer.

2. This is pretty fair. It happens much like standard play, just takes longer because more stuff

The rest is just personal preference, which is what it is. Which is part of why I think 2.0 format should allow huge ships but not mandate them. If properly balanced (unlike 1.0) there should be pros and cons to both strategies. In 1.0 it was bad to bring a huge ship so they required you bring one.

To mine and your number 1....

One game of epic vs many games of standard. I would just rather play more shorter games then one big game.

Okay what wave are we on right now...?

I know the answer I just want everyone to say it.

Okay now when was the first large capital ish ship come out?

It wasn't even a wave it was between 3 and 4. It was announced right before Wave 4 and after Wave 3 was released. It was a full 2 years after X-wing was released before the huge ships were even announced!

Just because the Rebel Transport wasn't in the Rebel Conversion kit doesn't mean that Epic is dead or won't be in 2.0 at all.

What is Epic X-Wing?

I thought it was thrown into the Maw along with all of the pre-Disney EU...?

14 hours ago, Forgottenlore said:

A while ago I was playing around with the flight path system and game design and mocked up som extra large bases, 100mm across. IMO, the size didn’t work so well, at least with the regular move templates, even a 1 speed was a massive change in position, so I think extra large ships would require a new movement system, same as huge ships do, and then you’re kinda defeating the purpose.

Tiny bases (20mm) though would have some potential for actual seeking weapons or tiny droid craft, or something.

There is an easy solution though. You put the maneuver template chosen in front of the model. Then you put a marker at the template's far end. The marker (provided in the hypothetical ship pack with the XL size 100mm base) has a slot for the template's end, and 2 slots for the little pegs of ship-templates. You remove the maneuver template, and move the ship forward so that it fits snugly in the peg slots of the marker. This way you have eliminated the "jump" made by the base, as suddenly the base does not contribute anything to distance flown. Thus the XL ship is actually slower than the rest.

3 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

There is an easy solution though. You put the maneuver template chosen in front of the model. Then you put a marker at the template's far end. The marker (provided in the hypothetical ship pack with the XL size 100mm base) has a slot for the template's end, and 2 slots for the little pegs of ship-templates. You remove the maneuver template, and move the ship forward so that it fits snugly in the peg slots of the marker. This way you have eliminated the "jump" made by the base, as suddenly the base does not contribute anything to distance flown. Thus the XL ship is actually slower than the rest.

That is a huge amount of hassle though, and would slow the game down a LOT. Part of the immense appeal of the flight path system is how dead simple it is.

6 hours ago, Forgottenlore said:

That is a huge amount of hassle though, and would slow the game down a LOT. Part of the immense appeal of the flight path system is how dead simple it is.

I don't know why you would just use the Huge ship movement system as is. It remains simple, and using it with 100mm bases would eliminate fish-tail.

Alternatively, @LawstDragon came up with a pretty slick idea:

On 11/12/2018 at 12:52 PM, Ikka said:

I don't really think Epic failed, it just...fizzled. A lot of people bought Epic ships (mainly for the cards honestly) but never played or played rarely. I think a main issue for me was feeling that the Epic ships themselves were so weak- they died quickly or didn't have the offense to justify taking them over something like a Decimator or YT. Bump up the Epic ships stats, make them worthwhile to play by making them truly epic in natural rather than just big targets, and then we might see more of an Epic scene. The monetary issue was never a problem for me- the huge ships were worth the price in model terms, just failed in gameplay terms.

yeah FFGs power creep red-dice-a-thon made even re-enforce so weak in comparison big ships just werent worth 100 plus points. people love epic, they just want a playtested and fun epic that you dont need houserules for.

Played Team Epic at the European Championships with @Arma Quattro . Got a lovely acrylic Epic movement template and some acrylic shield tokens, and had a blast.

Most people were more interested in playing the Hyperspace Qualifier instead though, which is unfortunate as we had a LOT of fun.

With a time limit and a structured format Epic is a joy to play. I'm hoping that when it is eventually re-released we see it given decent side event billing at official events alongside 200/6.

I collected the ships, because they were the best on that scale (finally something that as sold is to the highest grade, and not some product of the '80s) But I played few, very particulary tuned, and long elucubrated scenarios with friends. The main reason was we were afraid to damage models. They are big and not so easy to fix as a starfighter in case of some little damage. They fall in the same range of some big resin model for wargame. They costed you too much to risk 'em without a second thought. And you are happy to enjoy them on the shelf, well protected from dust and damages. The only two which saw extensive use were the C-ROC and the Gozanti Cruiser (two version of the same ship class if you know the background). They are truly solid and resistant, and compact and take easyly the stress of the duty during transport and play.

The game were fun. But they were also special days organized to catch up with very dear and old friends: we would enjoy every other activity, because the company involved. There vere good sized matches, that occupied us for full afternoons and often after dinner. Mostly they where an optional choice when we had less will to play Armada, which has bored my group quite rapidly (we were and remain fierce adepts off BFGs, and used for decades the Star Wars mod of it, and today we think it is a far superior gameplay).

I just wish we could use them as debris like the 1.0 cinematic rules allowed: no penalty for moving through them but you roll an attack die if you overlap it.

Two Gozanti, some GUNs and three defenders can literally tear down a raider. ?

But then..... "reinforce"

What a match, my friend! ?

The ships are beautiful. But as my people before sad, the fomrat took to long, was too random and fiddly. I hope they'll solve this for 2.0, because I love it!