Seastan posted a dwarf mining deck here: https://ringsdb.com/decklist/view/10311/everything-costs-1-ft-thorin-stonehelm-1.0

He built it up around the new Thorin Stonehelm hero (in the 2-player starter/collector's edition box), and gives him very high praise. Thorin does direct damage, 1 point of direct damage to be specific, after being declared as an attacker and discarding the top card of your deck. He swings for three, so with his ability he swings for an effective 4. With low-cost attachment, you can bring that to an effective 6 (Dwarrowdelf Axe). Seastan described him as 'there's no other hero like that' (meaning, swinging for such a high value with so little setup).

I have a different assessment, but rather than derail the comments section of his deck on ringsdb, I thought I'd post it here.

Thorin is a strong hero, but I would argue that his strongest asset is probably his low starting threat (9) and not his 'effective 4' attack and easy setup to reach an 'effective 6.' There are other options which can reach 4 to 6 attack as easily or more easily than Thorin, but their threat cost or ability cost might be a bit higher. Examples:

-Hero Beorn with Tactics Aragorn on your team. No card draw necessary; you're swinging for an effective 6 right out of the gate, with no cost associated with activating an ability. Or you're swinging for 9 if you combine the two of them. Beorn also has the added bonus of giving you an early-game solution for defense. The main'cost' of this setup is that it's a 2-hero combo, so that plans out a good deal of what else is going into your deck.

-Grimbeorn. With his ability, he's swinging for an effective 5 against most enemies from turn 1. Add a weapon (Dagger of Westernesse) and that's an effective 6 or 7 depending on the enemy's engagement cost. Main drawback is the resource cost to activate his ability (Thorin's 'discard from your deck' is much easier to pay), and his higher threat (11). Added bonus is that Grimbeorn can do his thing for any player on the table, since it activates through defense and he has Sentinel.

-Treebeard hero, with no setup. Obviously you need to include healing, but if we are looking for heroes who can reach a high attack value right from the start of the game, or with little setup, there you go. Very high threat though.

Anyway, that's all... I do like Thorin very much, but he's not unique in terms of raw power.

1 hour ago, GrandSpleen said:

-Hero Beorn with Tactics Aragorn on your team. No card draw necessary; you're swinging for an effective 6 right out of the gate, with no cost associated with activating an ability. Or you're swinging for 9 if you combine the two of them. Beorn also has the added bonus of giving you an early-game solution for defense. The main'cost' of this setup is that it's a 2-hero combo, so that plans out a good deal of what else is going into your deck.

I don't really count tactics Aragorn because I could also pair him with Thorin and I could adjust my statement for 6 attack to 7. Also, additional heroes don't require setup, but my statement was more geared to setting up a single attacking hero (I mostly play solo and it's often hard to make room for more than that).

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-Grimbeorn. With his ability, he's swinging for an effective 5 against most enemies from turn 1. Add a weapon (Dagger of Westernesse) and that's an effective 6 or 7 depending on the enemy's engagement cost. Main drawback is the resource cost to activate his ability (Thorin's 'discard from your deck' is much easier to pay), and his higher threat (11). Added bonus is that Grimbeorn can do his thing for any player on the table, since it activates through defense and he has Sentinel.

Grimbeorn is a far better hero than Thorin. He's probably the best combat hero in the game. But Thorin is still easier and cheaper to get to 6 attack. They both need a weapon to hit that number, but Grimbeorn has an additional requirement of continuing resources and certain conditions (the enemy having 2 defense and/or having high engagement cost).

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-Treebeard hero, with no setup. Obviously you need to include healing, but if we are looking for heroes who can reach a high attack value right from the start of the game, or with little setup, there you go. Very high threat though.

But Treebeard's regular attack is only 6 if you can heal off 3 per round, which requires way more setup than a Dwarrowdelf axe. I get that there are easier/cheaper ways to get a big burst of attack (Tactics Eowyn, Unseen Strike, any ranged hero with Black Arrow, etc.) but my comment was directed toward the ease of setting up a hero who can repeatedly swing for 6. In that sense, I'm still of the opinion that Thorin Stonehelm is unmatched.

Since you're specifying 'repeatedly,' I might add Gimli to the mix, who can get to 6 or close to 6 on turn 1 at some risk, if you take an attack undefended, and who wouldn't be hampered by immunity, 'cannot take non-combat damage,' or Toughness. No specific setup required. And tac-Aragorn himself, who starts at an effective 4 same as Thorin, and with 1 weapon will get to 5 or 6 depending on your threat (assuming he has Dagger as his weapon), and no cost to activate. Bard the Bowman assuming you're using him it the intended context (multiplayer ranger), which I guess you would not be if you're mostly doing solo. It just seems pretty common to be able to get to the 'magic number' 6 attack with only 1 attachment.

edit: comparing to his spirit counterpart in Spirit Dain, that guy really has no equal. No other hero can do what he does (6 def from round 1 without any draw requirement), although the cost for that is steeper.

34 minutes ago, GrandSpleen said:

comparing to his spirit counterpart in Spirit Dain, that guy really has no equal. No other hero can do what he does (6 def from round 1 without any draw requirement), although the cost for that is steeper.

Well, a Beregond + Dori gets to 6 defense without a draw requirement…

Hot used new thorin hero yet.

Legolas with a weapon will likely swing for an equivalent 5 and I think he is still one of the best combat option in the game considering his trait, keyword and their support.

But I see the point on Thorin. If you don't want or can't dedicate d3xk space to pump you heroes and are playing in single player he is a serious candidate for an attacking option.

On my side I have personal difficulties to wallow the deck discard mechanic.

I love noldor where I choose what to discard but blind discard is difficult for me. Dwarf mining is behind me for thw moment. This is why even if I consider a very good tale one of the top power card in the game often I don't play it...

I feel like Stonehelm is a really strong character and at a threat point that can fit in practically any deck and supported by the powerful 'dwarf' trait. (The 2nd best tactics dwarf hero after him is a spirit card!) What's there not to like?

Hopefully, he gets released more widely.

By the way, I think we will see quite soon the release of new cards which benefits of being discarded Hidden cache is good where Ered Luiz miner is just ok (but it's free). Both are quite bad if drwan. The other dwarf allies with discarding mechanic are fine but alone seem not enough to push this kind of deck at the level of many others. 1 or 2 great discarding cards are needed and probably arriving along with Thorin/Dain hero

Yeah I agree, I expect more cards for the mining support, and I cant wait I love that archetype, but it absolutely needs one or two more solid cards to bring it home I think....

11 hours ago, GrandSpleen said:

Since you're specifying 'repeatedly,' I might add Gimli to the mix, who can get to 6 or close to 6 on turn 1 at some risk, if you take an attack undefended, and who wouldn't be hampered by immunity, 'cannot take non-combat damage,' or Toughness. No specific setup required. And tac-Aragorn himself, who starts at an effective 4 same as Thorin, and with 1 weapon will get to 5 or 6 depending on your threat (assuming he has Dagger as his weapon), and no cost to activate. Bard the Bowman assuming you're using him it the intended context (multiplayer ranger), which I guess you would not be if you're mostly doing solo. It just seems pretty common to be able to get to the 'magic number' 6 attack with only 1 attachment.

edit: comparing to his spirit counterpart in Spirit Dain, that guy really has no equal. No other hero can do what he does (6 def from round 1 without any draw requirement), although the cost for that is steeper.

Gimli:

What are the odds you're going to be able to pull out a enemy that attacks for 4 on turn 1, then want to risk taking that attack undefended? This is a much less likely than finding a single Dwarrowdelf Axe, and much more dangerous.

Tactics Aragorn:

Yes, he gets to 6 with a Dagger of Westernesse if your threat is below the enemy's engagement cost. But keeping your threat down is not a trivial thing, and requires additional setup, whether it be threat reduction cards or other low threat heroes. So while both Thorin and Aragorn can get to 6 with a 1-cost, non-restricted attachment, Thorin makes no additional demands (apart from the rare "can't take non-combat damage").

Bard:

As you mentioned, I was focusing on solo with my statement. I'd consider Bard to be Thorin's multiplayer counterpart, being the easiest hero in the game to set up to start 1-shotting enemies engaged with other players.

As a side note, I don't consider Thorin's discard as a cost. Your deck is randomized, so discarding a card off the top should be no different than discarding one off the bottom. Unless of course you've been setting up your deck with something like Stargazer, but in that case you can actually arrange your deck so Thorin's discard is actually a benefit.

I still think Thorin demands the least conditions/setup out of any hero in the game to be able to swing for an effective 6 against an enemy engaged with you.

1 hour ago, Seastan said:

I still think Thorin demands the least conditions/setup out of any hero in the game to be able to swing for an effective 6 against an enemy engaged with you.

Both Cirdan and Sp-Glorfindel can swing for 6 first round with Fair and Perilous and no other cards. But that's only a one-time effect. It is kind of nuts that Thorin can get to 6, permanently, for just one card and one resource.

1 hour ago, Seastan said:

Gimli:

What are the odds you're going to be able to pull out a enemy that attacks for 4 on turn 1, then want to risk taking that attack undefended? This is a much less likely than finding a single Dwarrowdelf Axe, and much more dangerous.

I don't think it should be Gimli vs Thorin + Dwarrowdelf, just Gimli vs Thorin. I always packed the Axe for Gimli, it's just as good on him as it is on Thorin IMO. So the question then becomes how easy/practical/dangerous it is for Gimli to match or exceed Thorin's effective four.

The easy is undoubted, since in order for either to attack you need an engaged enemy, and the first engaged enemy in most quests I play (non-nightmare) is *very* likely to have 2-4 attack; meaning Gimli can take it undefended and counter-attack for *at least* four, shadows permitting. As a bonus, I don't have to scrape up a defender while Thorin's deck does.

The downside is that a shadow that converts the original attack to 5+ can kill Gimli dead if you lack any sort of protection. I did that frequently anyway with my TaGimli decks because if I'm going to go down in flames, I'd rather do it early so I can quickly reset. How much of a risk it is depends on the shadows for that particular quest, in most cases you're probably going to be OK (non-nightmare) even with a 4-strength attacker. I can see preferring Thorin as an attacker due to lower threat and less risk, but I give TaGimli the edge for unassisted attack power.

59 minutes ago, dalestephenson said:

I don't think it should be Gimli vs Thorin + Dwarrowdelf, just Gimli vs Thorin. I always packed the Axe for Gimli, it's just as good on him as it is on Thorin IMO.

Regardless of how easy it is to get 2 damage on Gimli, playing the axe and taking 2 damage is always going to be harder than just playing the axe.

3 hours ago, Seastan said:

As a side note, I don't consider Thorin's discard as a cost. Your deck is randomized, so discarding a card off the top should be no different than discarding one off the bottom.

I understand the point.

It's a sort of repetable deron ruins effect with a +1 attack effect in exchange of 1 net card drawn. Both make your deck smaller.

However it's difficult for me to pass over the card lost especially if I put 1x or 2x of many cards - which I often do.

I woluld be less reluctant if the cards discarded was at the bottom of the deck since I most likely would never see it anyway. That's why the dwarf pipe without a way to reshuffle my deck (very good tale, master of the forge, etc...) does not solve my problem.The thought of discarding one of my key or power card to trigger a one time action makes me lose my sleep. But let's call it with his name: mental block.

Gimli seems like he was upstaged by Beorn, and then by Grimbeorn. In the first expansion, taking an undefended attack wasn't that scary, but it would worry me now!

I don't think Thorin is out of line with other recent heroes, but getting a top-tier tactics dwarf is awesome. Feel a bit bad about him being in the collector's edition though

2 minutes ago, Halberto said:

I woluld be less reluctant if the cards discarded was at the bottom of the deck since I most likely would never see it anyway.

But that 1x card is just as likely to have been near the bottom of your deck, and you never would've seen it anyway. In fact, the number of times that Thorin accidentally discards your 1x card will be exactly cancelled out by the number of times he helps you find your 1x card by making your deck smaller.

11 minutes ago, Seastan said:

But that 1x card is just as likely to have been near the bottom of your deck, and you never would've seen it anyway. In fact, the number of times that Thorin accidentally discards your 1x card will be exactly cancelled out by the number of times he helps you find your 1x card by making your deck smaller.

Totally true.

Still seeing it discarded will crush my heart...

In principle I should be glad of the knowledge it's gone making my guess of what to expect from my deck more accurate but ignorance for optimisic people like me is often a gift.

Seriously, I'm just not a fan of the mechanic for personal playstile. Nothing to say against it working and being fun and effective!

Do you think we will get repeatable way to shuffle your deck in spirit/tactic to maximize dwarf pipe ability within the mining archetype? And do you think it is needed?

39 minutes ago, Seastan said:

Regardless of how easy it is to get 2 damage on Gimli, playing the axe and taking 2 damage is always going to be harder than just playing the axe.

Not always -- Archery 2, for example, would make it exactly as easy. But if you're simply gauging likelihood to get to effective six attack, you have to combine the likelihood of Gimli + axe + 2 damage *and* likelihood Gimli (without Axe) + 4 damage -- the latter case may not come up, but Thorin doesn't have a non-Axe path at all. And I think Gimli should be given credit in the comparison for possibly *exceeding* effective six attack. (Thorin should be given credit in the comparison for not possibly dying, which is no small thing....)

Now that I think we indeed already have ally Bofur in tactic who will shuffle your deck.

I should give mining archetype a try as soon as we get thorin released in a standard expansion.

2 minutes ago, dalestephenson said:

Not always -- Archery 2, for example, would make it exactly as easy.

I don't understand your point here. The presence of an Archery 2 enemy in play is the very thing I'm talking about when I say Axe+something else is harder to set up than Axe alone.

And yes, this conversation is just me defending my statement about ease of setting up a permanent 6-strength attacker. There's a lot more to care about in an attacking hero, like ability, threat, trait, other stats, etc. I'm not saying that Thorin is the best attacking hero in the game just because he's the easiest to get to 6.

I do think it's worth revisiting Gimli now that we have Open the Armory though. He could very well have gotten a lot better.

I’ll include Thorin in a deck because he’s a great attacker with threat on the lower side, or because he’s a dwarf, or because he allows you to discard from your deck (for decks which desire such a thing. Although even if you do want this, it’s still a cost both mechanically and practically, because there is risk involved). I would not look at a deck and think, “I need someone with easy setup” and immediately select Thorin as the best possible option. He would be a candidate but not a clear victor.

As for Aragorn, since you cited “keeping your threat down” as untrivial, you are now talking about sustaining the 6 attack across multiple rounds, instead of just ease of reaching 6 attack early in the game.

In that case, it’s a totally different discussion. Multiple rounds provide any hero with more time to set up. So if we are including “threat maintenance over time” as a variable to consider, the question becomes not “who can reach 6 attack early with least setup” but “whose ability gives more value over time.”

As a total off topic point, Thorin also has the ability to whiff in the late game if you have milled your entire deck and have no recycling. Probably not a big deal at that point.

If he’s included with leadership Dain on the table, he gets a nice boost (but so would Gimli).

The threat management point was an aside. It wasn't needed to make my point, which is that Aragorn needs a 1-cost weapon + lower threat than engagement cost, whereas Thorin just needs a 1-cost weapon.

I'm certainly talking about a sustained 6 attack. As pointed out before, there are plenty of ways to get 6 or above on a temporary basis for less setup.

2 hours ago, Seastan said:

But that 1x card is just as likely to have been near the bottom of your deck, and you never would've seen it anyway. In fact, the number of times that Thorin accidentally discards your 1x card will be exactly cancelled out by the number of times he helps you find your 1x card by making your deck smaller.

I wish more gamers understood this. Not just in LotR, but with most card games.

1 hour ago, Seastan said:

I don't understand your point here. The presence of an Archery 2 enemy in play is the very thing I'm talking about when I say Axe+something else is harder to set up than Axe alone.

And yes, this conversation is just me defending my statement about ease of setting up a permanent 6-strength attacker. There's a lot more to care about in an attacking hero, like ability, threat, trait, other stats, etc. I'm not saying that Thorin is the best attacking hero in the game just because he's the easiest to get to 6.

I do think it's worth revisiting Gimli now that we have Open the Armory though. He could very well have gotten a lot better.

Except in rare cases, the presence of enemies or effects that give you 2+ archery isn't something you set up at all, it's just something that happens in that particular quest. And *in that particular situation* the "set up" is exactly the same for both -- find the Axe. However, if you're not evaluating "how hard was it in this particular run-through to get to six" and instead evaluating "how likely was it in theory that this quest would generate extra damage to get Gimli to six", I can see adding that to the evaluation.

But if you're interested in just the likelihood of getting to six, it's not just a matter of noting that it's easier for Thorin to get to six with an axe, it also matters that Gimli can get to six *without* an axe. With 3x Dwarrowdelf Axe and 3x Open the Armory an axe is likely, especially if you mulligan for it (would you?), but that's true for Gimli as well -- and damaging Gimli is *easy* if you have an engaged enemy. If you don't have an engaged enemy, it hardly matters whether they can attack for effective six or not. (OK, there's battle questing, but there Thorin only starts with a +1 advantage on undamaged Gimli).

I've played TaGimli/Thalin/SpEowyn against a majority of the released quests in the game, but haven't tried him with Open the Armoury. Between taking an initial undefended and archery damage I had little trouble getting him to six attack whether one of my axes showed up or not (I didn't mulligan for it, I valued Honour Guard and A Test of Will rather higher). But I did kill him a few times along the way. I also put the Skilled Healer boon on Gimli for the saga, which helps.

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With 3x Dwarrowdelf Axe and 3x Open the Armory an axe is likely, especially if you mulligan for it (would you?), but that's true for Gimli as well -- and damaging Gimli is *easy* if you have an engaged enemy.

I grant that getting damage on Gimli is easy. But even the easiest task is harder than doing nothing.

Taking an undefended attack for 4 is certainly worth considering if you are desperate for 6 attack, but I think many people would consider it too risky and end up exhausting and defending with Gimli or someone else.

15 hours ago, Seastan said:

So while both Thorin and Aragorn can get to 6 with a 1-cost, non-restricted attachment, Thorin makes no additional demands (apart from the rare "can't take non-combat damage").

This is a question just so I can better understand the finer points of the rules. Wouldn't also a "immune to player cards effects" enemy be immune to the damage inflicted by Thorin's ability?