6 hours ago, Alonewolf87 said:

This is a question just so I can better understand the finer points of the rules. Wouldn't also a "immune to player cards effects" enemy be immune to the damage inflicted by Thorin's ability?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Wandalf the Gizzard said:

Yes.

Thought so, thanks.

16 hours ago, Seastan said:

I grant that getting damage on Gimli is easy. But even the easiest task is harder than doing nothing.

Taking an undefended attack for 4 is certainly worth considering if you are desperate for 6 attack, but I think many people would consider it too risky and end up exhausting and defending with Gimli or someone else.

I'll grant that getting to six if you have an Axe in hand is easier with Thorin, since even with an enemy engaged it may be too weak or too strong to give Gimli the damage he needs. I'm just not convinced that getting to six is easier overall with Thorin, since he needs the axe to get there. It's possible, with 3x Open the Armoury, especially if you mulligan for Axe/Open, but it may be quest dependent.

Many people may consider it too risky to take a 4-strength attack early -- but I generally didn't with my deck, though in the cases where I had Hasty Stroke or Close Call in hand I wasn't risking death. Of course, since it was a SpEowyn/Thalin/Gimli deck, the first undefended attack doesn't *have* to kill Gimli if shadow enhanced -- Thalin is more expendable. Thalin also made it so that getting to max damage *immediately* isn't critical -- no matter who the first enemy to engage was, taking a 1-4 attack undefended would almost always give me enough damage to one-shot it. (In the case where a 5-6 attack enemy is first to engage, I would defend with Gimli, of course -- and if Hill Troll takes out Gimli on turn 2 due to an unfortunate shadow in Journey Down the Anduin, I'd scoop.)

I want a six attack hero on turn one. If I had the choice between Gimli and Thorin; I'm taking Thorin.

Or beorn with a 1 attack 1 cost ally...

16 hours ago, Alonewolf87 said:

This is a question just so I can better understand the finer points of the rules. Wouldn't also a "immune to player cards effects" enemy be immune to the damage inflicted by Thorin's ability?

Yes. They'd also be immune to Aragorn's passive defense reduction.

7 hours ago, dalestephenson said:

Many people may consider it too risky to take a 4-strength attack early -- but I generally didn't with my deck, though in the cases where I had Hasty Stroke or Close Call in hand I wasn't risking death. Of course, since it was a SpEowyn/Thalin/Gimli deck, the first undefended attack doesn't *have* to kill Gimli if shadow enhanced -- Thalin is more expendable. Thalin also made it so that getting to max damage *immediately* isn't critical -- no matter who the first enemy to engage was, taking a 1-4 attack undefended would almost always give me enough damage to one-shot it. (In the case where a 5-6 attack enemy is first to engage, I would defend with Gimli, of course -- and if Hill Troll takes out Gimli on turn 2 due to an unfortunate shadow in Journey Down the Anduin, I'd scoop.)

I think Gimli can be really great if you build around him. Hasty Stroke/Close Call are good examples of how you can safely take that early hit. But that's more setup. Without those, I don't think I'd take that undefended attack if I were playing a serious game (say, I was playing head-to-head Woodland Realm, or some multiplayer game where I'd drag everyone down if I lost a hero). In a quick solo game where I can scoop or alternate-universe things, sure. But I think ease of resetting the game is out of the scope of the hero comparisons I'm trying to make. The assumption should be that you are always trying to make the best move.

2 hours ago, Seastan said:

But I think ease of resetting the game is out of the scope of the hero comparisons I'm trying to make. The assumption should be that you are always trying to make the best move.

This sentence holds more weight than people realize when making many hypothetical conjectures.

20 hours ago, Wandalf the Gizzard said:

Yes.

So would that mean that an enemy that is "immune to player cards effects" would say ignore Rivendell Blade's effect, which is

Quote

When attached character attacks an enemy, that enemy gets -2 until the end of the phase.

So an enemy with the immune text would only be affected by a character's base attack and defence?

"Immune to player cards effects" means immune to all effect that targets the enemy himself. So yes, he would be immune to Rivendell blade.

However, you can still boost your character's attack and defense, because those effects targets the attacking character, and not the enemy.

25 minutes ago, Miceldars said:

"Immune to player cards effects" means immune to all effect that targets the enemy himself. So yes, he would be immune to Rivendell blade.

However, you can still boost your character's attack and defense, because those effects targets the attacking character, and not the enemy.

Ah great, thanks for the clarification.

13 hours ago, Seastan said:

I think Gimli can be really great if you build around him. Hasty Stroke/Close Call are good examples of how you can safely take that early hit. But that's more setup. Without those, I don't think I'd take that undefended attack if I were playing a serious game (say, I was playing head-to-head Woodland Realm, or some multiplayer game where I'd drag everyone down if I lost a hero). In a quick solo game where I can scoop or alternate-universe things, sure. But I think ease of resetting the game is out of the scope of the hero comparisons I'm trying to make. The assumption should be that you are always trying to make the best move.

"Best" really depends on what you're looking for. I'll agree that if you're trying to get Thorin and Gimli *safely* to effective six, Thorin's definitely going to be easier. But if you're aggressive with Gimli -- and I am, in solo play -- I think Gimli's easier. Whether that aggression is wise or not is a separate issue, and is likely quest-dependent.

I mentioned Hasty Stroke/Close Call not because I make sure they are in hand before taking a potentially Gimli-killing hit, but because they *may* be in my hand for a potentially Gimli-killing hit, and that alters the generic odds of the early 4-strength undefended attack. So if I have a 25% chance of an attack-boosting shadow, but have about a 44% chance of either Hasty Stroke or Close Call being in my hand (published version of deck, using no sideboard cards), my chance of losing Gimli to a first-turn undefended 4-strength attack in this quest is just 14% overall -- and if I survive, I can kill the enemy if def + hp don't exceed seven (thanks to Thalin).

But suppose I *don't* take a 4-strength attack undefended without shadow protection in hand. Then in the same situation, 44% of the time I take undefended and get to six, and 56% I defend (if not questing) with Gimli and end up with 2-4 damage, meaning that I might be at six with the right shadow even safely -- and in no case will I lack the damage to match or exceed Thorin's attack at the point we are given an Axe.

Really the only case where Thorin has an advantage on getting to six before Gimli with an axe, even when being cautious with Gimli is when the first chance to attack involves an enemy with only 1 attack, or a very strong enemy that Gimli can't risk defending -- the first kind of enemy isn't likely to need six attack, and the second kind of enemy is likely to be too tough for six. Thorin's big advantage is that if Gimli is defending he won't be available to attack, and that makes Thorin better -- not first to get to six, but still the first to *use* it.

In multiplayer risking the loss of Gimli wouldn't affect just myself, but powering up Gimli would be in the interest of the group, and now somebody else might have some shadow protection as well. But with more reveals there's also more chance of non-combat damage (or a less dangerous enemy) to power up Gimli more safely. I've played my Gimli deck two-handed with the LeAragorn/Theodred/LoDenethor deck but never with another live player, so I've never felt the need to be less aggressive there.

But what about Woodland Realm? Suppose a Wild Bear comes out of the deck turn 1, would I be reckless in engaging him and taking him undefended? Unless my opponent has foreknowledge of my deck and playstyle, I think that gamble would pay off--it's a race, and getting Gimli in enemy killing form ASAP is in my best interest; going to 6 attack on turn one goes a long way towards winning. Excluding the Wild Bear that came out of the deck, there are 69 other possible cards. Of those, only 13 force me to add attack. Even without shadow protection in hand, there's a little less than 19% chance that I lose a hero (likely costing me the game), and a little over 81% chance that I've got Gimli at max base attack and a 1-point enemy out of staging and into the discard pile (giving me a big edge over my rival, IMO). I like those odds.

34 minutes ago, dalestephenson said:

I like those odds.

Mainly this discussion is making me want to run a deck that has both Thorin and Gimli, ha.

In multiplayer Bard the Bowman is “the man” you are looking for.

2 hours ago, dalestephenson said:

I like those odds.

I just don't see it; you are still taking 2 threat, giving up some flexibility about putting damage on a second enemy (through armour), and need to take an undefended attack or something.

(I totally get the point that Gimli can be more effective if you build around him, but it's a lot of setup.)

2 minutes ago, ColinEdwards said:

I just don't see it; you are still taking 2 threat, giving up some flexibility about putting damage on a second enemy (through armour), and need to take an undefended attack or something.

(I totally get the point that Gimli can be more effective if you build around him, but it's a lot of setup.)

When I said "I like the odds" I was referring to taking a 4-strength undefended attack from a Wild Bear for my SpEowyn/Thalin/TaGimli deck, despite having no shadow protection, against an unknown Woodland Realm encounter deck. I wasn't trying to claim that TaGimli was a better hero in general for Woodland Realming, or that my 53-card SpEowyn/Thalin/TaGimli deck is better than Seastan's 50-card Arwen/SpBeregond/Stonehelm -- I doubt Gimli is better than Stonehelm, and I'd lay serious money on Seastan having the better deck. Neither is relevant to the issue of whether TaGimli *should* take the bear undefended in that hypothetical. I think he should.

It doesn't take "a lot of setup" to get TaGimli's effective attack past Stonehelm's. All it takes is damage, and getting damage is easy. What's harder is taking damage without *risk* while not exhausting to defend, and that's what makes Stonehelm a more practical attacker for a cheaper cost. You can, of course, boost Gimli's attack way past Stonehelm by adding HP and stacking on more damage, but there's also a principle of diminishing returns; for every quest there's a magic number that will kill *most* foes, and boosting one hero's attack past that doesn't accomplish much (unless you're using Firefoot or you're mostly concerned about a boss fight).

8 hours ago, dalestephenson said:

I mentioned Hasty Stroke/Close Call not because I make sure they are in hand before taking a potentially Gimli-killing hit, but because they *may* be in my hand for a potentially Gimli-killing hit, and that alters the generic odds of the early 4-strength undefended attack. So if I have a 25% chance of an attack-boosting shadow, but have about a 44% chance of either Hasty Stroke or Close Call being in my hand (published version of deck, using no sideboard cards), my chance of losing Gimli to a first-turn undefended 4-strength attack in this quest is just 14% overall -- and if I survive, I can kill the enemy if def + hp don't exceed seven (thanks to Thalin).

The fact that Hasty Stroke/Close Call *may* be in your hand is still setup, because those are cards in your deck that Thorin doesn't need. Instead of those cads, the Thorin deck could run Dwarven Axe or some extra search cards to make finding the Dwarrowdelf Axe easier.

Gimli doesn't need them either, it's just an option. Can't really give a Thorin a point in this column for this reason; Gimli has native ability capable of achieving a 6 attack if the encounter deck delivers unto you a scenario which requires a 6-attack reprisal.

If you can't swing back for 6, it's because you didn't draw an enemy which requires you to swing back for 6... so it wasn't needed!

1 hour ago, Seastan said:

The fact that Hasty Stroke/Close Call *may* be in your hand is still setup, because those are cards in your deck that Thorin doesn't need. Instead of those cads, the Thorin deck could run Dwarven Axe or some extra search cards to make finding the Dwarrowdelf Axe easier.

Sure, but your Thorin deck *does* have Hasty Stroke (two copies, same as mine), and *doesn't* have Dwarven Axe. (I do have a lone copy of Dwarven Axe -- I prefer the cheaper Dwarrowdelf, but +2 attack is better than +1 plus direct on immune enemies or in conjunction with Heavy Stroke -- with double tactics the extra cost isn't a big deal.) I don't pack Hasty Stroke specifically for Gimli's initial undefended, which is often the only attack he takes all quest -- I pack it for all those other defenses that happen during the game. Close Call is especially suited to the initial undefended, but I don't mulligan for it, and I've used it to handle bad treacheries or a strategic undefended later in the quest. The other card that helps with the initial undefended is Honour Guard, but I pack three of those in every double tactics deck; I love that card. The cards in my deck specifically for Gimli are Dwarrowdelf Axe, Dwarven Axe, Citadel Plate, Quick Strike, plus Heavy Stroke in the sideboard -- Citadel Plate is the only one of those cards that wouldn't benefit Stonehelm just as much as TaGimli.

Two pages discussion... I can’t count how many solo decks are out there that can reach 6 axes, or deal with 6 def + wounds enemies consistenly from turn one.

The only thing I can say is that Seastan has earned such respect and reputation in this community (very well deserved) that his Thoron deck can pull a two pages discussion.

Cudos mate!

38 minutes ago, Yepesnopes said:

The only thing I can say is that Seastan has earned such respect and reputation in this community (very well deserved) that his Thoron deck can pull a two pages discussion.

for when you absolutely need a deck to prove radioactive decay!

I was not thrilled by Thorin Hero when I saw him spoiled where Gildor seemed clearly the best of the duo.

Now I realized he is better than i thought at first glance. Look forward to get him by regular AP and try him in practice.

I think the threat difference between 11 and 9 is more significant than it might appear too. Dwarf decks often benefit from an extra turn or two to get set up.

7 minutes ago, ColinEdwards said:

I think the threat difference between 11 and 9 is more significant than it might appear too. Dwarf decks often benefit from an extra turn or two to get set up.

True but I think that the main point here is that both heroes and their ability are not strictly linked to dwarves decks and synergies which mostly are linked directly or indirectly to the number of dwaves on the table (Gimly in particular. Thorin seems at home in dwarf mining although not fully dependent from it).

New Dain would combo well with Thorin in a mining deck. Old Dain combos well with both for attack boost but neither I probably the best choice in combination with Dain ( in multiplayer this don't matter as dain boost cover all the table. Still crazy after what? 7 years?).

Probably ally Gimli fits better than both his hero versions in a typical dwarf swarm deck and there are better option than Thorin for a such kind of deck either (although not so many in tactic).

LE Thorin oakshield with LeDain swing for 4 in turn 1 and for an equivalent of 6 with a 1 cost are attachment you can pay with Thorin additional resource since with the in sphere narvi belt you don't need a tactic hero to pay for off sphere cards. However you often don't need attachment attack boost in dwarves swarm decks

Require set up and not feasible in turn 1 of course, so no competition with TaThorin/Gimli in that regard.

15 hours ago, dalestephenson said:

Sure, but your Thorin deck *does* have Hasty Stroke (two copies, same as mine), and *doesn't* have Dwarven Axe. (I do have a lone copy of Dwarven Axe -- I prefer the cheaper Dwarrowdelf, but +2 attack is better than +1 plus direct on immune enemies or in conjunction with Heavy Stroke -- with double tactics the extra cost isn't a big deal.) I don't pack Hasty Stroke specifically for Gimli's initial undefended, which is often the only attack he takes all quest -- I pack it for all those other defenses that happen during the game. Close Call is especially suited to the initial undefended, but I don't mulligan for it, and I've used it to handle bad treacheries or a strategic undefended later in the quest. The other card that helps with the initial undefended is Honour Guard, but I pack three of those in every double tactics deck; I love that card. The cards in my deck specifically for Gimli are Dwarrowdelf Axe, Dwarven Axe, Citadel Plate, Quick Strike, plus Heavy Stroke in the sideboard -- Citadel Plate is the only one of those cards that wouldn't benefit Stonehelm just as much as TaGimli.

I'm not comparing specific decklists here. Just which hero (Gimli or Thorin) will be able to consistently attack for 6 with the least amount of setup. Getting into decklists makes this discussion impossible. For example, I mulligan for my Axe, but you might not. That's a huge factor in terms of consistency. Your decklist has several cards that seem to help you take a potential 4-attack undefended on Gimli. In that case, maybe Gimli is easier to set up in the cases where those cards happen to be in your hand. But for a fair comparison in terms of setup cost, the Thorin deck should be granted just as many extra cards to help boost Thorin to 6.

16 hours ago, GrandSpleen said:

Gimli doesn't need them either, it's just an option. Can't really give a Thorin a point in this column for this reason; Gimli has native ability capable of achieving a 6 attack if the encounter deck delivers unto you a scenario which requires a 6-attack reprisal.

If you can't swing back for 6, it's because you didn't draw an enemy which requires you to swing back for 6... so it wasn't needed!

But the fact that it's an option doesn't help of you're never going to take it. Which is why we are now discussing the legitimacy of taking a undefended 4-attack early in the game. If it were a serious game and I didn't have a cancellation card in hand, I probably wouldn't.

5 hours ago, Seastan said:

I'm not comparing specific decklists here. Just which hero (Gimli or Thorin) will be able to consistently attack for 6 with the least amount of setup. Getting into decklists makes this discussion impossible. For example, I mulligan for my Axe, but you might not. That's a huge factor in terms of consistency. Your decklist has several cards that seem to help you take a potential 4-attack undefended on Gimli. In that case, maybe Gimli is easier to set up in the cases where those cards happen to be in your hand. But for a fair comparison in terms of setup cost, the Thorin deck should be granted just as many extra cards to help boost Thorin to 6.

So let's give Thorin six more card slot so that he can include 3x of Bow of Yew and 3x of Dagger of Westernessee, which as far as I can see is the only other way to add two effective attack for one tactics resource, and his percentages go up slightly. If you specify a second tactics hero you can include 3x Dwarven Axe, and a leadership hero would bring in Dunedain Mark as an option. But not all setup is created equally. Putting twelve weapons in the deck that all go on Stonehelm is a lot dead space. Having Hasty Stroke, a core set staple, in your deck might have an impact on Gimli's ability to get to six -- but it's not likely to be *used* in getting Gimli to six and it isn't remotely a dead card when Gimli is at full attack mode. (Close Call is a much more narrowly useful card, and unlike Hasty Stroke can be included without having a different-sphere hero, I think it's fair to label it a Gimli setup card.)

Even without a decklist, other factors beside deck space are massive influencers, as you note. Doing a mulligan for Axe/Armory absence is *huge* in terms of the impact of getting six, without regard to Gimli vs Thorin. Yet I wouldn't mulligan for Gimli in practice even with 3x Axe/Armory in deck (not a bad plan, I think I should work it in, especially since the Citadel Plate could be grabbed by it), because *even if* I don't get the Axe, whichever enemy I engage first is likely to provide enough damage for me to one-shot that enemy. That's not true of Thorin, he's not impacted by the strength of the engaged enemy. Having Close Call in hand would make a *huge* difference to your willingness to take an undefended attack with Gimli -- but for me it only affects the likelihood of Gimli *surviving* the undefended attack.

It's indisputably true that Thorin Stonehelm can get to six quickly with Armory/Dwarrowdelf and Gimli can't without cooperation from the encounter deck. It's also indisputably true that Gimli can get to six without attachments, with cooperation from the encounter deck, and Thorin can't. But quantifying "cooperation from the encounter deck" for TaGimli's is quest dependent and play-style dependent. It also matters if you're comparing time-to-get-to-six or likelihood-of-being-at-six-at-your-first-chance-to-attack -- since Gimli's primary damage mechanism is likely to be enemies, if you have no enemies he's not likely to get to six at all, while Thorin can get to six easily with nothing but locations popping out of the deck. It doesn't do any good, but he'll have it.

Of course, the concept of six as a magic number is also quest dependent. For some quests it's lower, for others it's higher. Here's the distribution in Woodland Realm:

11 -- Ungoliant's Spawn (unique, cost 3)

9 -- Chieftain Ufthak (unique, cost 3), Beast of Taur-Nu-Fuin (cost 2)

8 -- Mirkwood Spider (cost 1), Pack of Wargs (cost 1), Mirkwood Patrol (cost 1)

6+stage -- Wild Bear (cost 1)

7 -- Giant Spider (cost 1)

6 -- Wicked Spider (cost 1)

5 -- Ambushing Orcs (cost 1)

4 -- Black Forest Bats (cost 0), Wolf Rider (cost 0), Wild Wargs (cost 1)

3 -- Spiders of Mirkwood (cost 0), Mirkwood Flock (cost 1)

Going from 4 to 6 only lets Thorin one-shot two more enemies, but 6 to 8 will get him five more one-shot targets.