i've never played Epic but i'd love to.

6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, that's great except for the lack of ANY NEW CONTENT for years.

I got into this game about Wave 3; the GR-75 and Corvette were not available yet, but had been announced.

I got bored of 100/6 pretty fast. If I had known that Epic was going to be a joke in terms of support, it likely would have changed my level of commitment to the game.

I own every Epic ship and i love epic, but there is a limit to how much space people have, and the more epic ships you own the less you get to use each individual one.

I don’t know what other ships they could announce that I’d be excited to buy...maybe a Hammerhead? Maybe.

I think at this point I’d rather have things that enhance what I have, like new missions, mini campaigns, etc.

I'd rather they take their time and get epic right this time than rush out rules that don't work.

Epic wasn't balanced in 1st ed.

1.5 (Epic using 1.0 rules and points, the rest using 2.0) works well enough for me. Dengar crew and Thug Droids are the only things that I think need removing: even Harpoon Missiles don't seem overpowered since it's rare for the huge ships to get 4 hits with them. Jonus' ability might need to be adjusted, didn't have him in play last time.

I just need to play more games of it!

2 hours ago, Bakura83 said:

I own every Epic ship and i love epic, but there is a limit to how much space people have, and the more epic ships you own the less you get to use each individual one.

I don’t know what other ships they could announce that I’d be excited to buy...maybe a Hammerhead? Maybe.

I think at this point I’d rather have things that enhance what I have, like new missions, mini campaigns, etc.

How big is the Hammerhead from Rebels and Rogue One? The original from KotoR would be far too big, but the new one is smaller, I just don't remember how much (it's also uglier).

@Darth Meanie The "no content for years" is just false. Every single standard play ship is also new content for epic. To be fair, a lot of players in my area didn't even run epic ships while playing epic, they just played a few squadrons and the assymetric game with only one player having epic ship was also not bad. I think if they convert what is there it would be enough for a while, every standard ship adds something to epic anyway. I'm saying this as epic player, it's not only about those huge ships, it's about the scale.

It didn't sell well enough for ffg despite card hostages. Also while I liked it barely any compedetive players in my country cared for it.

Now with 7 factions I doubt er Will see Epic re work for a long while.

22 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

How big is the Hammerhead from Rebels and Rogue One? The original from KotoR would be far too big, but the new one is smaller, I just don't remember how much (it's also uglier).

I only think in terms of miniatures, in which case the Hammerhead is roughly the size of the Corvette (I am of course talking about the Rogue One version). Maybe in the movie it might be slightly larger.

Epic's always been in a weird place, so it's understandable if FFG doesn't fully understand what it's own plans should be for the format. The vast majority of people I know who bought Epic ships only bought them for the cards that were useable in standard play. I've played Epic once and found it to be a fairly dull experience, to be honest. Judging by the lack of enthusiasm at local stores for Epic game nights it seems I'm not alone. With so many Epic ships being bought just for the upgrade cards I can see how FFG would struggle to determine just how popular it is. That said, they did promise something for 2nd edition but I don't think we'll get anything at all until wave 3 is out.

50 minutes ago, Bakura83 said:

I only think in terms of miniatures, in which case the Hammerhead is roughly the size of the Corvette (I am of course talking about the Rogue One version). Maybe in the movie it might be slightly larger.

Oh yeah, we have them in Armada don't we? Forgot about that.

1 hour ago, Jike said:

Epic's always been in a weird place, so it's understandable if FFG doesn't fully understand what it's own plans should be for the format. The vast majority of people I know who bought Epic ships only bought them for the cards that were useable in standard play. I've played Epic once and found it to be a fairly dull experience, to be honest. Judging by the lack of enthusiasm at local stores for Epic game nights it seems I'm not alone. With so many Epic ships being bought just for the upgrade cards I can see how FFG would struggle to determine just how popular it is. That said, they did promise something for 2nd edition but I don't think we'll get anything at all until wave 3 is out.

I think one issue was that Epic really feels like a WH40k Titan - it’s an awesome centrepiece, and really cool for a unique experience now and again but it’s so far outside the normal parameters the game was designed for it starts to fall apart when you try to make it it’s own thing.

I don’t regret a single Epic purchase, and at some point I may even be crazy enough to buy two more GR-75’s, but I’m not chomping at the bit for more. I won’t ever move to X-Wing 2.0, so I’m happy for Epic to be quietly retired, or to move on to 2.0 as there aren’t really any other ships I’d want at that scale.

1 hour ago, mazz0 said:

How big is the Hammerhead from Rebels and Rogue One? The original from KotoR would be far too big, but the new one is smaller, I just don't remember how much (it's also uglier).

Very close in scale to the cr90 I believe from watching Rebels/Rogue One.

1 hour ago, jocke01 said:

It didn't sell well enough for ffg despite card hostages. Also while I liked it barely any compedetive players in my country cared for it.

Now with 7 factions I doubt er Will see Epic re work for a long while.

I think the deciding factor was how the c-roc sold. Arguably, it was the first epic ship to not have “must have” cards for competitive play. And while we have no numbers to rely on, my gut tells me it tanked when I never saw them go out of stock anywhere, never seemed to need a reprint (citation needed, could be wrong), and I know I saw them on sale for around $20 about a year ago on amazon.

It was at that time I realized the odds Scum would ever see their corvette sized epic was minimal at best.

1 hour ago, Bakura83 said:

I only think in terms of miniatures, in which case the Hammerhead is roughly the size of the Corvette (I am of course talking about the Rogue One version). Maybe in the movie it might be slightly larger.

I think this is one of those times where the official stats have messed up somewhere.

The Hammerhead is listed at 315m on Wookieepedia, to the CR-90's 150m. But that has to be wrong. Every visual indication from Rogue One and Rebels is that the Hammerhead is shorter than the CR-90. I'm pretty sure 315m is the length of the original Hammerhead cruiser from KotOR, so obviously some author just used that stat without checking where it came from or thinking about it.

The Armada miniature is scaled correctly, so obviously someone at LFL knows what's up.

So no official numbers, sadly. But yeah. My guess would be 100-130m for the Hammerhead.

On topic: I think Epic is a really important and worthwhile addition to the game, but I also recognise the cost it represents in terms of money, space and time.

Epic is an awkward beast. Given the size of the board and the length of games, it really does feel that instead of one epic game you could have two pairs of players play two standard games simultaneously (i.e four games) and I think that extra level of resolution and completion is more appealing.

Epic is also a super limiting scale. I think it's telling from the releases we've had that there aren't actually that many Star Wars combat ships at around the 100m length. FFG had to completely make one up for the Empire, and Scum and Rebels both have an unarmed transport. Other recognisable ships like the Neb-B are just too big.

None of that is necessarily a problem, but I think when you only have a few possible candidates for release in the scale, you have to get it right.

I don't believe Epic 1.0 did that. It was never fully fleshed out as a system, and certainly the GR-75 and CR-90 - as the first two releases - were left in the dust by the Imperial equivalents.

Epic 2.0 has the advantage of 1.0's 'beta test', and I hope FFG takes a lot of time to balance Epic based both on the lessons learned from 1e and the new paradigm we already have in 2e. The CR-90 being made redundant by the Raider's access to Ordnance Tubes, for example, would not be an issue in 2e where slots are flexible.

Still, Epic 2.0 should do what Epic 1.0 failed to do and go through a design process where there are actually opposing ships to test balance against.

I'm absolutely fine with Epic not being converted at launch. It needs a serious rethink, and I think FFG should concentrate on getting all the spinning plates of 7 factions set first before they introduce a massive new gameplay style. Let's give 2e a solid year to sort itself out and for everyone to take a breath before we dive into the mess of balancing Epic.

Personally, I'd like them to take a good hard look at Armada and see which of its mechanics can be ported to X-Wing for Epic ships. I think a hybrid using Armada defence tokens, hull zones and attack dice but with more granular X-Wing scale HP (per hull zone), the crippled section rules from 1.0 and the 1.0 Epic movement rules would be amazing. Forget the energy nonsense. Use non recurring charges for appropriate upgrades, and change the actions to be more like Armada's command dials (gain a re-roll on all attack rolls that round, change speed, X-Wing co-ordinate action on a number of ships up to the Epic ship's command value, reload a number of upgrade charges based on ship's engineering value).

Epic would need a redesign.

Some of the stuff that made epic ships unique has been moved to small and large ships, like the Jam, Reinforce and and Coordinate actions.

The mechanic of huge ships ramming a bunch of small ships always was silly and not really lore friendly. Capital ships behave more like backdrops for smaller ships rather than obstacles. They are basically landmarks with turrets. The instances where a small ships has been trampled by a huge ship in the setting is testimonial, and when it has happened, it has been because the smaller ships had been shot down already and was spinning out of control.
Small and large ships that overlap a huge ship should just move their base until they are at range 0 of it, touching whichever side of the huge base that was closer to the end of the template.
Huge ships that overlap smaller ships should cause the same effect to trigger on the smaller ships. They should just reposition until they are at range 0 of the huge ship after it moves. Just as if the huge ship bases were a warped zone of space.

On the other hand, huge ships should always have a running reinforce token on both sections. These ships have much harder armor and a bunch of stray laser shots should not be a threat unless the attackers are totally ignored (But don't think this would make them too strong against swarms: the removal of trampling buffs swarms a lot against huge ships).

Finally, they would need to separate Epic from Huge ships. Epic should still be massing a bunch of ships (600 points in 2.0?), while huge ships should be playable at lower point totals. The usual 200 points for small and large, then extra 1 or 2 epic points. The transports would cost 1 point. The corvettes 2 points. Then you equip them with upgrades from the same pool of 200 points as you equip your small and large ships. The huge ships don't cost extra squad points. Only 1 or 2 epic points.
That would make people actually bring huge ships, while keeping the amount of upgrades in them, and the amount of small and large ships reasonable. The fewer amount of total ships and game effects to keep track of would translate to much shorter games.

Of course, if you want to have extra long games, you could play 600 squad point games with additional epic points to purchase huge ships. But at least it is no longer mandatory.

I think the Consular cruiser is the most iconic Republic ship they could pick for Epic. It looks to be a similar size to the Tantive IV so the scale should work.

6 minutes ago, Covered in Weasels said:

I think the Consular cruiser is the most iconic Republic ship they could pick for Epic. It looks to be a similar size to the Tantive IV so the scale should work.

Yeah, it's the only appropriately sized ship I can think of. Even better, there's the combat refit version from Clone Wars which is more in keeping with the GAR aesthetic and would actually be useful in a fight. It's only just short of the CR-90, so it's just about perfect. Looks badass too with all those guns; I think it actually has more than the Corvette.

While we're wish listing, I'd really love it if FFG could bring in some 'small base' Epic ships. That is to say, ships that function the same way as Epic ships with the same sort of movement, actions, section separation, crit deck and upgrades but fill the gap between normal large base ships and the current Epic ships.

Specifically, I know my RPG group and I would absolutely freak if we could get a model of the YZ-775 .

Is the Jedi cruiser we saw in Clone Wars the one that gets blown up in Phantom Menace? I don't remember it super well.

How big is the nice semi-circular rotating Jedi Shuttle? I'm guessing it's just large base size.

Epic is a lot of fun, as what it does is it allows the positive elements of X-Wings to shine really well by having more ships on a bigger space. I've played close to around 50 Epic / Team Epic games since it debuted, and I've never played with folks who didn't immensely enjoy it. Unlike standard, more stuff is blowing up (and even if a player/team is losing they're still killing lots of stuff), K-Turns/T-Rolls/S-Loops are far less common because of the size of the board and the plethora of targets, also making multi-turn approach tactics far more viable vs the insta-reactiveness of standard, and the most degenerative ships in standard have an increasingly less negative effect as point values go up, because truly problematic enemy ships can either be ignored or focused down quickly at 300/400 pts.

When I want to play a game that feel s like dog-fighting in the Star Wars universe, I play Epic.
When I want to play a game that looks like Star Wars and is quick and easy to find a match of, I play Standard.


It's a real shame that FFG's official stance on Epic has basically been: "Oh yea, we love Epic, hopefully someday probably!" It could well be years before we see official conversion content for it, and it certainly doesn't help matters that now with 7 Factions there's a giant back-log of factions that need Epic ships (assuming the format is going to keep the rule that squads have to contain epic ships).

37 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

Is the Jedi cruiser we saw in Clone Wars the one that gets blown up in Phantom Menace? I don't remember it super well.

How big is the nice semi-circular rotating Jedi Shuttle? I'm guessing it's just large base size.

More or less, the one on the left is the one from TPM while the one on the right is the one that has had some turbolasers slapped onto it, it was basically a case of the Republic trying to make use of ships it already had so that it could be combat ready.

As for the rotating Jedi Shuttle, its mostly just a large base sized ship.

The Resistance and the First Order are definitely going to be the most difficult factions to find any huge ships for inclusion. Even the shuttles and such we've seen in Resistance are basically large ships closer in size to the YV-666 or YT-1300.

That said, I think we've seen the Resistance (and the Republic) both use the Tantive IV , so maybe they'll just make that a tri-faction ship? Seems like the safer bet, since with customers potentially split across seven factions now, I don't think you can afford to make a Huge Ship product that's only going to appeal to about 15% of your player base.

So, but that same logic, just give the Separatists the C-ROC (I think they may have even used some in the Clone Wars cartoons?) and that just leaves letting the First Order have access to a Raider or Gozanti or giving them something new (ashame the Upsilon wasn't kept more true to scale and made a huge ship).

6 hours ago, Zura said:

@Darth Meanie The "no content for years" is just false. Every single standard play ship is also new content for epic. To be fair, a lot of players in my area didn't even run epic ships while playing epic , they just played a few squadrons and the assymetric game with only one player having epic ship was also not bad. I think if they convert what is there it would be enough for a while, every standard ship adds something to epic anyway. I'm saying this as epic player, it's not only about those huge ships, it's about the scale.

What I meant was no new content for Huge Ships, which is often conflated with "Epic Play" just like you did.

There have been no upgrade cards specific to Huge Ships since June 2017. There are no Huge ships or Huge Ship Upgrades coming for the foreseeable future. Ergo, no content for Huge Ships for years.

34 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Epic is a lot of fun, as what it does is it allows the positive elements of X-Wings to shine really well by having more ships on a bigger space. I've played close to around 50 Epic / Team Epic games since it debuted, and I've never played with folks who didn't immensely enjoy it. Unlike standard, more stuff is blowing up (and even if a player/team is losing they're still killing lots of stuff), K-Turns/T-Rolls/S-Loops are far less common because of the size of the board and the plethora of targets, also making multi-turn approach tactics far more viable vs the insta-reactiveness of standard, and the most degenerative ships in standard have an increasingly less negative effect as point values go up, because truly problematic enemy ships can either be ignored or focused down quickly at 300/400 pts.

When I want to play a game that feel s like dog-fighting in the Star Wars universe, I play Epic.

Well said.

23 hours ago, SOTL said:

What happened to Epic? They made Armada.

Probably the most succinct assessment yet.

20 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

That's actually what I like about it. I'd rather play a single long game the whole night than one extra micro game.

Also, at the level of Epic you can really start to do things like missions and scenarios that are tough to flesh out at 200-points-standard.

Sure. I prefer the standard games, but to each their own.

The problem is that there should not be an Epic format at all. Either Epic should be folded into Standard, or abandoned. The current "eeehhhhh….. welllll….." state of Epic is the worst of the three options.

6 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Sure. I prefer the standard games, but to each their own.

The problem is that there should not be an Epic format at all. Either Epic should be folded into Standard, or abandoned. The current "eeehhhhh….. welllll….." state of Epic is the worst of the three options.

Well, IMHO, no Epic at all is the worst of the 3 options.

Folding it into Standard would be fine from a "level of interest" POV, since the Huge ships could be used whenever and thus could become more popular.

But, as I said, 200-standard is a lousy milieu for creating mission and scenario based play. Which can be far more engaging than 'Kill them all" over and over again.

Maybe FFG needs to rebrand the "Epic" idea into "Narrative Play," and put things like Sabine's TIE, the Shuttle Tydirium, the Bladewing prototype, Imperial Warlord TIE Automateds, et. al. into that camp.

FFG supporting Epic play is a sound financial decision, as it promotes purchasing far more models than players require for standard X-wing. It also promotes purchasing Huge ships, which have a considerable price point. I'm sure the folks at corporate understand this as well (at least I truly hope so - the app proves sometimes they are a bit clueless). My hope is that they are in the process of revamping Epic into a new game experience, not just something tacked onto the 2.0 X-wing game. It needs to feel epic. There should be stakes to these games, with victory conditions based on scenarios and not ships shot down. I could see that taking some time and I'm willing to wait for it, but I have standard X-wing to fall back to in the meantime. I can totally understand Darth Meanie and anyone else that isn't interested in the game that feels like a game more than war. Regular X-wing games feel like a sport game really, which isn't a bad thing - it's just not what I think Epic should feel like.

I look forward to new models as well as new rules. I have every Epic ship and they look great on my shelf, but I'd love to use them in combat. I suspect they're tooling up new ships to go with the release of new rules. So, a year for everything to hit kinda makes sense. I feel bad for the folks that have to wait, but I see there are plenty of new concepts from players that look really solid, so maybe they can hold over the Epic die-hards in the meantime. It's certainly frustrating, for sure, and sooner would be better than later, especially for FFG. It's money waiting to be made for them.

I would like to see the huge ship rules standardized enough mechanics wise that they can be used in standard play.

have epic be a play mode independent of standard play that caters to bigger games where a huge ship can actually go in alongside fighters, instead of replacing them.

it would be a good place for additional objectives (adapting the armada objectives and conditions cards would be good) as well as rules for more flexible forces (perhaps an 'allies matrix' that allows you to mix certain factions ships together in a force.. Like rebellion+Resistance, or Imperial+Scum.)

Basically focus Epic less on big ships and more on creating the kind of 'epic' big battles we are in the film's and shows, while ensuring that there is more to them than 'kill them all'