2 minutes ago, Bakura83 said:

I just meant that for today’s general audience “the confederacy” = pure evil because of slavery, so you can’t really explore the idea of liberty and states rights and the whole “maybe on this issue the confederacy had the moral high ground” without slavery instantly making the whole Conflict very black-and-white, no pun intended.

I mean, the historical Confederacy's mission began and ended with the preservation of slavery. there is no other justification for what they did that is not - at best - hypocritical.

44 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

I mean, the historical Confederacy's mission began and ended with the preservation of slavery. there is no other justification for what they did that is not - at best - hypocritical.

I agree there is no justification. I disagree that that automatically means that the North was right to militarily invade individual states that no longer wanted to be a part of the Union of States, or right to impose greater federalisation on the country.

Separate the issue from slavery (like in Star Wars where neither side seems particularly concerned with the realities or existence of slavery in one form or the other beyond lip-service legislation) and does the Republic really have the right to Militarily conquer worlds that no longer want to be part of the old order?

I know it’s not a perfect example because the CIS are so obviously coded as “the bad guys” and are always attacking the Republic, but that’s the writers fault.

6 minutes ago, Bakura83 said:

I agree there is no justification. I disagree that that automatically means that the North was right to militarily invade individual states that no longer wanted to be a part of the Union of States, or right to impose greater federalisation on the country.

Separate the issue from slavery (like in Star Wars where neither side seems particularly concerned with the realities or existence of slavery in one form or the other beyond lip-service legislation) and does the Republic really have the right to Militarily conquer worlds that no longer want to be part of the old order?

I know it’s not a perfect example because the CIS are so obviously coded as “the bad guys” and are always attacking the Republic, but that’s the writers fault.

I mean, if you attack a representative of a sovereign country, you deserve what happens to you.

6 hours ago, Bakura83 said:

I just meant that for today’s general audience “the confederacy” = pure evil because of slavery, so you can’t really explore the idea of liberty and states rights and the whole “maybe on this issue the confederacy had the moral high ground” without slavery instantly making the whole Conflict very black-and-white, no pun intended.

The Empire vs Rebellion worked thematically because the Empire could be coded Nazi’s and therefore perfectly suited as the one-dimensional villains of a morality play. Lucas seemed to want to do a much more grey look at how democracy can be eroded from the inside in the prequel’s which would have benefited from having more sympathetic villains and both sides thinking they were fighting for good ideals but at the same time allowing themselves to be manipulated by evil machinations.

He failed spectacularly, but I think I like what I think he was going for.

Ah, I see. All excellent points.

Though I guess I don't think Lucas failed entirely , in so far as the CIS always seemed to have as it's greatest motivation the economic interests and economic freedoms at its fundamental core, with groups like the Banking Clan, the IBC, and the Trade Federation as the major players. By keeping these principles at the ultimate core of the CIS, it makes it easier to paint them as the "greedy bad guys," who really care more about their bottom lines than more independent governance. I think this is very explicitly done by Palpatine, because at the end of the day he knows that the Separatists can't become too popular or too sympathetic . He needs the CIS to be just popular enough and just supported enough to justify ramping up the Republic Forces and mobilizing the Inner Rim with an "Us vs Them" sort of mentality, but when the dust settles Palpatine needs to the CIS to be wholly defeated so that he can rule from the now-institutionalized and centralized military complex that is the Post-War Republic.

I actually think, viewing the prequel trilogy as the story of Palpatine's Rise to Power, it's a fantastic tale. It certainly helps that Ian McDermod is, bar none, the best actor in the franchise. We get enough of the glimpses that we need to appreciate the patience and subtle nuance of Darth Sidious, and it helps make him such a different sort of villain than Darth Maul or Darth Vader, who are at the end of the day just mindless enforcers--tools to be wielded and discarded by Sideous when they've lost their edge. I guess the central question is "can Star Wars be Star Wars" without an enemy like Palpatine, who drives the entirety of the Prequel and Original Trilogies. And I think the Sequel trilogy has revealed to us that, no, it can't really. With Snoke and Hux being incompetently laughable and unmotivated archvillians, and with Kylo's motivations and character being still completely opaque despite two films, the Sequel Trilogy has failed to create a compelling or plausible context for the sort of grand tension that so wonderfully defined the first six films.


PS: I read the X-Wing books as a child, and enjoyed them. I have never made it more than a few pages into any other Star Wars novel. With one exception. At the recommendation of a good friend, I read Darth Plagueis , and while it's "Legends" now it is a fantastic book. It's very well-written, it's respectful and well-versed on the background world of Star Wars, and it delves so much more into who Maul is, who Dooku is, and the long slow-con laid patiently and meticulously into place by Plagueis and Sideous to eventually rule the galaxy. Highly recommend. Even though it's "Legends," now, it doesn't really conflict with anything and might as well still be canon (it's my head-canon, anyhow).

58 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I guess the central question is "can Star Wars be Star Wars" without an enemy like Palpatine, who drives the entirety of the Prequel and  Original Trilogies. And I think the Sequel trilogy has revealed to us that, no, it can't really. With Snoke and Hux being incompetently laughable and unmotivated archvillians, and with Kylo's motivations and character being still completely opaque despite two films, the Sequel Trilogy has failed to create a compelling or plausible context for the sort of grand tension that so wonderfully defined the first six films. 

In my admittedly limited opinion as I have yet to read ALL of the novelizations and tie in series of the new canon, I believe this is where the movies fall short. A lot of information is left out of the movies that could have been added in, and thus would have made parts make MUCH more Sense. Imagine they mention in the text crawl opening TLJ that General Armitage Hux (that is his name), has lead the invasion of the Galactic Core Worlds! Or that he is the illegitimate son of an Imperial Officer and a kitchen worker, who fled into the Unknown Regions after the Battle of Jakku. He personally oversaw the training the first generation of the First Order Storm Troopers, combining the Republic Clone Trooper training, and the conscription of children like the Empire did. He grew up being told that the empire saved the galaxy from the chaos of the clone wars, that the Empire / First Order had technological dominance over the rest of the galaxy, and that he would inherit his fathers position as the lead military commander. But none of that is what we see in the movies... except the part where he believes he has technological dominance. This is clearly seen multiple times, which is why he makes questionable choices, because he frequently underestimates his foes.

Snoke is weird, we don't see much of him, and as far as I can tell, he rose to power in the FO quickly, just before the old imperial High Command of the FO was replaced with the new breed. We are told he is a powerful force user, but not a Sith. I believe he came from the Unknown Regions, and may be Disney's setting up for something along the lines of a Yuuzhan Vong style arc. He knows a lot of the history of the galaxy, he took control of a military and political power house, and he is trying to get rid of the "weaker, less powerful Jedi Order" with his Knights of Ren. A strange wording there with the whole, Knights of Ren thing... We haven't heard of the Dark Side using Knights before, that was mostly a Jedi thing. And the way the talks about and to Ben/Kylo, he is very selective about his protegees. " He was born with equal good and evil ," and " The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work. " To me, that sounds a lot like he is trying to create a group of people that can defend against something.

Then we get to Ben. And I will call him that because I believe there is still good in him. Yes, he killed Han, but that entire conversation is strange. He wanted to hand over his light saber, you can see it in his eyes, and he didn't do it until all light had faded. He refused to kill his mother, that was seen at the very start of TLJ, which is interesting. And for the most part his anger is more directed toward Luke, who caused this whole misunderstanding. Like Luke, everything has been taken from him, either because he felt betrayed and lashed out, or because he has been convinced to by Snoke. I believe Snoke has told Ben that ultimate goal of the FO, at least, what the goal for the Force wielding side of it is... and that is why he is also trying to get Rey to join him. We have seen Rey, she will use the light but at the same time accept the dark parts of the force. Ben can see this, which is why he has been so adamant about getting her to join him. If I am right, and he has been told of some, extra-galactic threat that they are preparing for... that is why his lines, " The Empire, your parents, the Resistance, the Sith, the Jedi... let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That's the only way to become what you are meant to be." sounds like a call to unite the galaxy, without saying, "HEY BY THE WAY..."

But thats just me. I also think that Holdo makes sense as a character if you look at her as a senator suddenly thrust in charge of the last 800 people willing to fight the FO. She didn't know exactly what to do, and its not like Poe, Finn, and Rose told her, "hey, we think they have hyperspace tracking, not 100% sure but the Empire was researching it before, and so its either that, they have captured Rey and have the other half of the Beacon, or there is a F/O Spy!"... sooo..... yeah... the good guys didn't make all the best choices. I personally think it would have been more interesting if Poe had to deal with a spy plotline as well, but then you have 4 plot lines going on at once, and you should never do 4.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Kylo's motivations and character being still completely opaque despite two films, the Sequel Trilogy has failed to create a compelling or plausible context for the sort of grand tension that so wonderfully defined the first six films.

I disagree with the first part, agree with the second. IMO, we've really had two kinds of good villain: schemers who subtly make sure events suit them (Palpatine, Thrawn, Dooku) and those who force their foes on the defensive through simple overwhelming force personally and/or on a grand scale (Vader, Grievous.) In terms of character and motive, Kylo feels betrayed and is desperate to prove himself a worthy Sith, and it makes him dangerous... He's just not someone who ever really feels in control of the situation, and as a result he's just not intimidating. He doesn't fit in either category.

Why make this into yet another movie discussion thread?

5 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Why make this into yet another movie discussion thread?

I guess because there’s only so many times you can copy paste the same list of characters who have appeared in some leadership role who might be an Armada Admiral.

then let this thread die and start a movie discussion thread

Going back a few pages, the objection to Veers being that he is a General. In my cultural tradition, General means ground forces - infantry, artillery, etc.

But in US tradition, General also means Air Force - the USAF was originally the USAAF, with the extra A meaning Army (iirc).

In New Hope the only General we meet is Dodonna, who commands the fighters, and then Lando is a General at Endor, commanding the fighter wing.

The other Rebel Generals tend to be special forces or intelligence (Rieekan, Madine, Solo).

The Imperial forces seem to have a clearer line between fleet and ‘fantry, but I see no real reason why Veers could not command a force in Armada. Perhaps his ability is to have AT ATs on asteroids so you get a red dice from each asteroid every round or something...

(also - slavery is evil - people ought not be bought and sold - movies are both good and bad and better and worse than books - I like Zahn)

I start a discussion on admirals and it becomes a discussion on the US Civil War, followed by another discussion of the current films. For those not paying attention, Kylo's line: "I'll finish what you started, Grandfather" is the basic plot of the trilogy. Snope, like Palpatine, was a barrier to Vader's goal of ruling the galaxy with his family. Padme said no, Luke said no, and Kylo has nearly achieved it.

Don't over analyse military structures, tactics or strategy in Star Wars or you'll end up blogging https://angrystaffofficer.com/category/star-wars/

All hail Grand Admiral Porgue!!!

I have been contemplating how Vice Admiral Holdo would work in the game, since the only thing we see her do in the 8th movie is not give commands and then suicide ram. So I have come up with this:

Vice Admiral Holdo 30 points

All Ships in your fleet must assign 1 extra command dial in the command phase( ie. you have one extra command value for the whole fleet without benefits) You may discard Vice Admiral Holdo, if you do draw a line from the ship with Vice Admiral Holdo using the range ruler. All ships inside the line are targeted and you may roll 4 black dice. No defense tokens may be used. After the attack is resolved remove your ship from play.

I'm not sure about the point cost, because on the one hand it could be really overpowered( in some ways, but after holdo dies you would still have an extra command dial until you spend it) but on the other, you would rarely get a good chance to use this, maybe a profundity hammerhead combo could work well. Also you can attack and then move before you use the vice admiral. Plus you don't have a commander anymore.

TIL a sub-faction of the Separatists was the Retail Caucus.

I just can't with this universe sometimes. We joke about bad Star Wars names and we joke about people just using a thesaurus to make variations on the same name sometimes, but this case is just too real.

[Economic Term] + [Political Organization] = Separatist Council

Trade/Techno/Banking/Commerce/Corporate/Communications/Retail

Federation/Union/Clan/Guild/Alliance/Cartel/Caucus

And we don't even get any overlap! There's no Banking Federation along with the Trade Federation. Each one carved out its own little unique economic term and its own little political organization, no matter how stupidly specific it had to get. I assume the others included the Mercantile Bookclub, the Democratic People's Republic of Trickle-Down, the Moneylending Council, and the Plutocracy Association.

9 minutes ago, Nostromoid said:

TIL a sub-faction of the Separatists was the Retail Caucus.

I just can't with this universe sometimes. We joke about bad Star Wars names and we joke about people just using a thesaurus to make variations on the same name sometimes, but this case is just too real.

[Economic Term] + [Political Organization] = Separatist Council

Trade/Techno/Banking/Commerce/Corporate/Communications/Retail

Federation/Union/Clan/Guild/Alliance/Cartel/Caucus

And we don't even get any overlap! There's no Banking Federation along with the Trade Federation. Each one carved out its own little unique economic term and its own little political organization, no matter how stupidly specific it had to get. I assume the others included the Mercantile Bookclub, the Democratic People's Republic of Trickle-Down, the Moneylending Council, and the Plutocracy Association.

I guess they successfully copyrighted their own word and so the others had to choose a new one. ?

1 hour ago, Bakura83 said:

I guess they successfully copyrighted their own word and so the others had to choose a new one. ?

Clearly the work of the Trademark Authority

Casian was a separatist too. I guess his home world was separatist aligned and human. A child soldier would be a bad admiral choice though...

As for OT commanders: Garrick Versio could be one. He seems to be pretty intel focused. So I guess some information based ability might be fitting for him.