So just wondering if I’m wrong here and I apologize if it’s been brought up before but looking at defenders in 2.0, they seem garbage now for the price. They removed the the thing that made them special and that is the white k turn. Maybe I’m missing a title card or something but they are way overpriced again but this time without the Kturn. So are they actually garbage now? Am I missing something? They were my favorite ships growing up and in X-Wing 1.0 and now I don’t know if I’ll ever use them.

I think you may have gotten dials mixed up. Definitely have the white K-turn.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think you may have gotten dials mixed up. Definitely have the white K-turn.

Wow!! When I put together the dials I had a friend help. I wonder if he didn’t pay attention and somehow got the wrong maneuver part of the dial. Thank you for letting me know I was seriously bummed out. Just made my weekend!

They also get blue 1-banks and a red 2-k, just in case you want it.

They are a bit expensive, specially if compared to the fotm of bombers and punishers but they are not a bad ship. If I had the choice I would prefer to spend the points for the built in shield upgrade on something else but the engine upgrade (boost) is better than I expected.

Also the unnerf of the title so it works when overlapping a rock is nice.

As has been said, dial is actually a little better and with Advanced Sensors they are really good. But they are sooooooo expensive!

I think they are a bit overpriced right now, especially Vessery, who pays ten points for his ability.

That said the chassis is fine as long as they can find a fair price for them.

2 hours ago, Jaden Ckast said:

So just wondering if I’m wrong here and I apologize if it’s been brought up before but looking at defenders in 2.0, they seem garbage now for the price. They removed the the thing that made them special and that is the white k turn. Maybe I’m missing a title card or something but they are way overpriced again but this time without the Kturn. So are they actually garbage now? Am I missing something? They were my favorite ships growing up and in X-Wing 1.0 and now I don’t know if I’ll ever use them.

They still have the free turn around. Even if they didnt though they would still be good.

I believe they are the only good to great ship from 1.0 that actually got BETTER in 2.0.

X7 ability somewhat un-nerfed, extra shield, extra actions, sensor slot, and improved dial.

Only thing they lost was mod slot.

So I would be extremely leary of any price decreases on them.

I kinda think Defenders are too strong.

I've flown a lot of them (like 8-0 with my main Defender list), and I just don't understand folks who think they aren't strong. Maybe they're throwing lots of upgrades on them--fewer upgrades and more ships is kind of the watchword of 2e. My experience has exclusively been with Deltas, usually naked but sometimes with FCS, and they're just engines of pure inevitability.

I'm aware they're not tearing up top tables at large tournaments, but they feel kind of unbalanced at a store level. New player comes in, tries to square off against Delta/Delta/Omicron(Palp). The four shields, the token stacking, and easy K-Turns (which are essentially unblockable due to the Lambda's coordinate) are going to mean you take a lot less damage than you ought, and keep guns on more often than you should. Adding a Boost to them is huge, and it allows them to change the direction of their K-Turns really easily. There's nothing a new player can really do to that. Some things are issues because of tournament performance. Some might be issues because of NPE at the store level.

Like Luke-Gunner, TIE Defenders should probably have some ease-of-use tax added to them.

*e*

I'd probably still fly Delta/Delta/Omicron if they went up to 75 points... ditch Palp, and put FCS on both Deltas, 199 points.

In my 2.0 trials Rexler flying with non-defenders works well as defenders are the Empire’s only truly durable small ship, and his ability abuses the nastier 2.0 crit deck.

I have been trying to run a 2 defender list with Rexler and Ryad but the lack of ships makes having 1 ship out of arc for a turn is a real bummer, and when the green dice fail you wish you had a third ship.

biggest issue with defenders is the apparent popularity of token denial on high initiative pilots and palob (mainly to deal with...high initiative pilots)

without the free evade, defenders have the durability of a ship about half their cost ?

no, 3 agility doesn't do diddly!

Defender not defenders. That’s the biggest change. It’s hard to fly two.

But yeah. You may want to check all your dials.

Defenders feel ok to me.

To pricy for my likeing, but not bad at there price point, I just like having more red dice on the board then there price allows.

But I like interceptors so maybe I am just wrong.

TIE Defenders are overcosted.

Let me show you why: Place 5 Barrage bombers/Jonus against 3 Delta Defenders (!) in a joust. The Bombers are I2 and the Deltas I1 so the Bombers shoot first and focus fire. Lets even assume the first 2 Bombers with focus and Jonus rerolls(!) misses completely on the first two shoots and only strips, first focus, and then evade from the target TIE Delta, which is now token-less and will get destroyed by the 3 remaining barrage shoots with focus and Jonus rerolls. The remaining 2 TIE Deltas WILL need have to take out a bomber with 6 hull before end of turn, which requires the 2 TIE defenders to both roll a minimum of 3 hits each and the target bomber to completely whiff both defences, if the Deltas do not achieve this the Defenders have lost the match as they are now hopelessly outgunned.

That is 3 Delta Defenders having a hard time, requiring the TIE Delta to be costed at 66pt to squeaze ind 3 Deltas in 200pt, presently the TIE Delta are priced at 72pt.....

3 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

Place 5 Barrage bombers/Jonus against

Right there is the issue, not the cost of the Defenders. TIE Bombers will likely go up in cost.

8 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Right there is the issue, not the cost of the Defenders. TIE Bombers will likely go up in cost.

I agree with this as well.

Also, why are you jousting one of the more powerful joust lists in the game with ships that are way faster and more maneuverable?

That said, I wouldn't be sad if the Defenders got a slight reduction in cost, maybe all the Uniques being made to cost 84, 2 to 4 less for the non-uniques. But I don't think being able to put 3 on the board would be good for the game.

2 bare Deltas leaves 56 points to play with. Which is good, but not too good. If you start playing with the points on Defenders, you'll maybe get In4 Onyx's instead, with FCS, or HLC. And a fat Redline. Or Juke on both with Vader Whisper...

I think everyone might see just how decent the Defenders are now.

One of the reasons I don't think you see them much at the top tables is that they leak MOV like crazy.

Vessery is overpriced though.

35 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

TIE Defenders are overcosted.

Let me show you why: Place 5 Barrage bombers/Jonus against 3 Delta Defenders (!) in a joust. The Bombers are I2 and the Deltas I1 so the Bombers shoot first and focus fire. Lets even assume the first 2 Bombers with focus and Jonus rerolls(!) misses completely on the first two shoots and only strips, first focus, and then evade from the target TIE Delta, which is now token-less and will get destroyed by the 3 remaining barrage shoots with focus and Jonus rerolls. The remaining 2 TIE Deltas WILL need have to take out a bomber with 6 hull before end of turn, which requires the 2 TIE defenders to both roll a minimum of 3 hits each and the target bomber to completely whiff both defences, if the Deltas do not achieve this the Defenders have lost the match as they are now hopelessly outgunned.

That is 3 Delta Defenders having a hard time, requiring the TIE Delta to be costed at 66pt to squeaze ind 3 Deltas in 200pt, presently the TIE Delta are priced at 72pt.....

Probably any list in the game is going to have a hard time in a straight joust with 5 Bombers. Defenders, while low initiative, are highly mobile. The goal for a Defender squad is obviously going to be to avoid the initial joust, and they have tools to have a pretty good chance at it.

If you can get only one of the bombers out of arc, you'll have like an 84% chance to live through the joust. Even if a defender fails to dodge any arcs, it still has a 55% chance to live (depending on crit effects, see link below). Once Defenders break the formation, when the Bombers can't just focus and keep arc, the advantage begins to shift. Full Throttle and White K-Turns are going to be pretty rough if the Scimitars are down to 2 red dice. I think player skill will be a huge factor in a Defender vs Bomber contest.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gyAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAQAAAA&a2=MQgAAAQAAAA&a3=MQgAAAQAAAA&a4=MQgAAAQAAAA&a5=MQgAAAQAAAA

//

Meanwhile, it's a question of counters. Defenders feel really good against lower ship count aces. If they're only taking one attack a round, Full Throttle is going to do mad work, and Defenders will chip away more at enemies over time. Defender have a much easier time keeping arc on enemies than other low-initiate ships.

One of the worst match-ups for Defenders is probably going to be heavy swarm and massed 3-red dice attacks. I'm fine with that. I kind of think Five. Cartel. Marauders . is probably going to be a tougher matchup than Triple Fang Aces. If Defenders do worse against Jonus Bombers than other lists, that doesn't mean they're underpriced.

//

12 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

2 bare Deltas leaves 56 points to play with. Which is good, but not too good. If you start playing with the points on Defenders, you'll maybe get In4 Onyx's instead, with FCS, or HLC. And a fat Redline. Or Juke on both with Vader Whisper...

I think everyone might see just how decent the Defenders are now.

One of the reasons I don't think you see them much at the top tables is that they leak MOV like crazy.

Vessery is overpriced though.

If you could take a decent Redline and two Deltas, cripes I think that'd be strong.

At current prices, I'm a broken record. 56 points is Omicron with Palpatine. Coordinate and the floating force point provide a lot of cover to boost and barrel roll and target lock, and the Shuttle's red dice always feel like they genuinely contribute to games.

Rexler-juke, Whisper-juke, Soontir-juke. 200 points. Pure mayhem.

19 hours ago, JasonCole said:

Rexler-juke, Whisper-juke, Soontir-juke. 200 points. Pure mayhem.

I hereby dub thee "The Jukes of Hazard".

1 hour ago, DXCrazytrain said:

I hereby dub thee "The Jukes of Hazard".

Dammit. Knew I should've trademarked that on Juke Rex, Whisper, Echo.

I even had Whisper down as Bo, Echo as Luke and Rex as Daisy...

Vessery and Ryad can take on a whole squad by themselves. If you guys think they are overpriced, you need to try them again. They are insane.

9 hours ago, Sir Orrin said:

Vessery and Ryad can take on a whole squad by themselves. If you guys think they are overpriced, you need to try them again. They are insane.

What do you run on them?

Vessery does seem a bit pricey to me due to ship initiative. I4 is kind of like the old PS 5 thru 7 in 1.0.

9 hours ago, Sir Orrin said:

Vessery and Ryad can take on a whole squad by themselves. If you guys think they are overpriced, you need to try them again. They are insane.

I should qualify my Vessery overpriced opinion by saying 'in comparison to the others'. Rex and Ryad feel slightly superior to me. Vessery could be the cheapest of the 3 and I wouldn't have considered it odd at all.