14 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:Sleeves - In a game such as this, where the card backs are unique to the deck, I find it a little odd that clear sleeves are NOT allowed. You'd think it'd be a good way to make sure the deck hasn't been tampered with.
That was my initial thinking, as well. However, the deck name on the bottom of each card. So if an opponent is using opaque sleeves, you can inspect her or his deck at the start of a match by fanning the cards out.
5 minutes ago, JorduSpeaks said:That was my initial thinking, as well. However, the deck name on the bottom of each card. So if an opponent is using opaque sleeves, you can inspect her or his deck at the start of a match by fanning the cards out.
You can't do that for sealed events, apparently.
26 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:It's really, really hard to preserve the quality of a card even fresh out of the pack. Just a single nick along the edge is unpreventable, and usually enough to qualify a card as being marked. That's why I thought it was odd for Destiny to go the opposite route.
With only 36 cards to manage, and cards not being interchangeable between sets, it won't be hard for a reasonably competent player to identify something out-of-place. Not that cheating won't be possible, but I don't think there's all that much to fear. A bigger concern might be whether or not players are allowed to keep track or count their opponent's cards mid-game, since unlike other games your discard pile eventually goes back into the deck.
My initial thoughts were whether FFG would allow phones/tablets at the table, since in Archon formats you could request your opponent's deck card, take a photo of it and just annotate on your screen every time a card was used.
If not, players will bring paper pads for "notes" and scribe the decklist before each match. Start working on your shorthand!
1 minute ago, The Last Owlbear said:My initial thoughts were whether FFG would allow phones/tablets at the table, since in Archon formats you could request your opponent's deck card, take a photo of it and just annotate on your screen every time a card was used.
If not, players will bring paper pads for "notes" and scribe the decklist before each match. Start working on your shorthand!
If only a deck came with a printed out list of what cards were in the deck...man...to dream a dream!
5 minutes ago, HaasBioroid said:If only a deck came with a printed out list of what cards were in the deck...man...to dream a dream!
Which you can't look at in sealed events. Still rather beside the point, since you can't count cards with just the archon's deck list.
Edited by WonderWAAAGH11 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:Which you can't look at in sealed events. Still rather beside the point, since you can't count cards with just the archon's deck list.
I am aware of that, but it shouldn't matter in sealed, not knowing what your opponent has is the point in sealed.
I think you've missed my point. Keyforge is unique in that you get to recycle your discard pile, something you don't usually do in competitive card games. The cards are only hidden information until your opponent has played through all of them, at which point they might as well be using a poker deck. At that point you can start counting them to figure out what's in your opponent's hand, based off of their current discard pile and play area. I can definitely imagine someone using a notepad to that effect.
Edited by WonderWAAAGH9 hours ago, JorduSpeaks said:Their rationale is that it prevents players from using cards that have become "marked" through incidental damage. Personally, I don't think it's likely to make a difference for a number of reasons, but FFG does sell opaque sleeves as well.
Also, unless you have an unreasonable tournament organizer, clear sleeves will be just fine at local, low-level tournaments. Basically, you only need opaque sleeves for "unchained" events.
I can understand why the chose to only allow opaque sleeves. What I can't understand is why the very product they recommend you buy is a product they will not allow.
If you go to the Starter Set product page they have a link to put the recommended sleeves into your cart. The sleeves they recommend are clear. I bought quite a few, spent a lot of money on their recommendation, now they're pulling an old bait and switch and telling me the sleeves they specifically told me to buy, and continue to tell people to buy, are not actually usable for their and possibly other run tournaments.
Am I really the only one that has a problem with this? I don't care if the don't allow clear sleeves. But don't tell me to specifically buy clear sleeves, then say that can't use them. There's something very wrong with that...
Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:I think you've missed my point. Keyforge is unique in that you get to recycle your discard pile, something you don't usually do in competitive card games. The cards are only hidden information until your opponent has played through all of them, at which point they might as well be using a poker deck. At that point you can start counting them to figure out what's in your opponent's hand, based off of their current discard pile and play area.
And based off of previously release FFG card games, note taking will not be allowed. I feel confident that will be their verdict.
2 minutes ago, HaasBioroid said:And based off of previously release FFG card games, note taking will not be allowed. I feel confident that will be their verdict.
Previously released FFG card games allowed transparent sleeves. Some of them also had (mostly) comprehensive timing sequences at launch. It's an apples-to-apple pie comparison.
Anyways, I already sent them an email about it. Maybe we'll see what they say... eventually.
Edited by WonderWAAAGH1 minute ago, dperello said:I can understand why the chose to only allow opaque sleeves. What I can't understand is why the very product they recommend you buy is a product they will not allow.
If you go to the Starter Set product page they have a link to put the recommended sleeves into your cart. The sleeves they recommend are clear. I bought quite a few, spent a lot of money on their recommendation, now they're pulling an old bait and switch and telling me the sleeves they specifically told me to buy, and continue to tell people to buy, are not actually usable for their and possibly other run tournaments.
Am I really the only one that has a problem with this? I don't care if the don't allow clear sleeves. But don't tell me to specifically buy clear sleeves, then say that can't use them. There's something very wrong with that...
Every FFG product has FFG sleeve recommendations on the box, and its because FFG makes multiple sized sleeves for all kinds of cards, so really it is just there to let you know what size sleeves you will need. FFG however only makes opaque sleeves with specific art on them, usually for specific IP's they control, so when they make the suggestion it is for their generic clear sleeves. I'm not sure why people have a problem with this.
Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:Previously released FFG card games allowed transparent sleeves. Some of them also had (mostly) comprehensive timing sequences at launch.
Which ones? Because netrunner specifically required opaque sleeves.
2 minutes ago, HaasBioroid said:Which ones? Because netrunner specifically required opaque sleeves.
You know what, I may actually be mistaken about that. I was pretty sure Destiny insisted on clear sleeves at one point, but either it's been changed since then or I wasn't remember correctly. Oh well.
2 minutes ago, HaasBioroid said:Which ones? Because netrunner specifically required opaque sleeves.
Again, at most local, weekly tournaments clear sleeves will be perfectly fine. This is because even a marked deck will eventually acquire enough chains that it cannot win.
Opaque sleeves are only mandatory for regional, big money events.
Just now, JorduSpeaks said:Again, at most local, weekly tournaments clear sleeves will be perfectly fine. This is because even a marked deck will eventually acquire enough chains that it cannot win.
Opaque sleeves are only mandatory for regional, big money events.
Im aware. I don't think most people will carry two sets of sleeves though.
5 minutes ago, HaasBioroid said:Every FFG product has FFG sleeve recommendations on the box, and its because FFG makes multiple sized sleeves for all kinds of cards, so really it is just there to let you know what size sleeves you will need. FFG however only makes opaque sleeves with specific art on them, usually for specific IP's they control, so when they make the suggestion it is for their generic clear sleeves. I'm not sure why people have a problem with this.
They weren't simply making a suggestion. On the product page for the game there is a link to add sleeves to your cart. The sleeves they are specifically selling to use with this game are sleeves they say you can't use with this game. That is wrong. They either need to stop adding unusable products to your cart or start allowing the very thing they recommended you buy.
Just now, dperello said:They weren't simply making a suggestion. On the product page for the game there is a link to add sleeves to your cart. The sleeves they are specifically selling to use with this game are sleeves they say you can't use with this game. That is wrong. They either need to stop adding unusable products to your cart or start allowing the very thing they recommended you buy.
But A. you can use them with the game, just not in premiere tournaments. and B. Because that is the sleeves they sell.
2 minutes ago, HaasBioroid said:But A. you can use them with the game, just not in premiere tournaments. and B. Because that is the sleeves they sell.
To be fair, he has every right to be upset. The fact that there's a workaround doesn't take that away.
16 minutes ago, HaasBioroid said:But A. you can use them with the game, just not in premiere tournaments. and B. Because that is the sleeves they sell.
I don't think you're understanding my point. I have no problem with them saying opaque sleeves must be used in premiere tournaments and may be required in any other tournament, just don't tell me to buy clear sleeves. FFG should not be leading people to buy a product they themselves disallow. Telling people, "Here, buy these sleeves. Your cards will fit into them just great. Now you can't use them to play the game at our events, or possibly other's. You'll now need to spend even more money and buy these other sleeves. Why did we tell you to specifically buy sleeves we won't let you use? I'll give you three guesses..." is just messed up.
Edited by dperello29 minutes ago, HaasBioroid said:Im aware. I don't think most people will carry two sets of sleeves though.
Two packs of sleeves is exactly the number you need to play Magic. With Keyforge, though, you don't need to buy that second pack until you're about to enter a big event.
6 minutes ago, JorduSpeaks said:Two packs of sleeves is exactly the number you need to play Magic. With Keyforge, though, you don't need to buy that second pack until you're about to enter a big event.
You can buy packs of sleeves in several denominations. Dragon Shields, for example, are usually 100 ct.
16 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:You can buy packs of sleeves in several denominations. Dragon Shields, for example, are usually 100 ct.
Well **** thats a bargain that i had not even considered.
It's actually just over 100, to account for 1-3 possible defects. I use them for commander, and they last ages. A little thicker than most other sleeves, but totally worth the investment. Be aware that some of the styles require a short break-in period; the mattes, for example, are thick and slick, so the first couple of times you stack them they might slide off each other. Just a minor, temporary thing.
Always try to get as many sleeves as you can for a given deck from a single source. I've had packs of Ultra Pros in the exact same color / style that were cut slightly different, so they stood out when mixed.
Edited by WonderWAAAGH3 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:It's actually just over 100, to account for 1-3 possible defects. I use them for commander, and they last ages. A little thicker than most other sleeves, but totally worth the investment. Be aware that some of the styles require a short break-in period; the mattes, for example, are thick and slick, so the first couple of times you stack them they might slide off each other. Just a minor, temporary thing.
Always try to get as many sleeves you can for a given deck from a single source. I've had packs of Ultra Pros in the exact same color / style that were cut slightly different, so they stood out when mixed.
Ya, I use matte ultra pro, but I'm considering dragonshield now that I can get three decks worth in one pack.
1 hour ago, HaasBioroid said:Well **** thats a bargain that i had not even considered.
FFG sleeves come in packs of 50, but per sleeve they're about half the price. I've found them to be of comparable thickness to Dragonshield.
Ultra Pro is trash. Don't buy it.