I find myself being curious as to what would be overpowered about having an action that can be performed while stressed for the cost of a Force, but as a normal action otherwise.
Purple Actions
7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:I find myself being curious as to what would be overpowered about having an action that can be performed while stressed for the cost of a Force, but as a normal action otherwise.
Probably very little, and I was wrong in my previous post, this is probably the least powerful of the positive options.
I think the biggest knock against this is it feels a little more complicated than the other options. I know it isn't, but getting an extra action at a cost, or getting/spending a token to do an action feels very in line with what you can already do with actions (whether linked or red).
2 minutes ago, GeneralVryth said:Probably very little, and I was wrong in my previous post, this is probably the least powerful of the positive options.
I think the biggest knock against this is it feels a little more complicated than the other options. I know it isn't, but getting an extra action at a cost, or getting/spending a token to do an action feels very in line with what you can already do with actions (whether linked or red).
It is a lower powered Contraband Cybernetics that uses a recurring charge for one action instead a one off use. How bloody complicated is that???
Edit: Any perceived frustration on my part is directed at the concept not the person presenting it.
Edited by Hiemfire3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:It is a lower powered Contraband Cybernetics that uses a recurring charge for one action instead a one off use. How bloody complicated is that???
Edit: Any perceived frustration on my part is directed at the concept not the person presenting it.
Fair enough, maybe complicated is the wrong word, perhaps unfamiliar would fit better. Personally, I don't think it's complicated but I have encountered enough people who I know to be smart doing something stupid or misinterpreting something to believe in the KISS concept. I think I said earlier in this thread, that I thought this was the second most likely outcome in my mind besides the pseudo linked action option. It certainly is the least powerful of the positive options.
40 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:I find myself being curious as to what would be overpowered about having an action that can be performed while stressed for the cost of a Force, but as a normal action otherwise .
That's the option that feels like the best alternative to what I think it'll be. I wouldn't mind this being the final ruling on it, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Mainly because of the Coordinate options. I don't think and ARC should be able to K turn and follow it up with coordinate. I can't think of a ship that can pull that off, but I could be wrong there.
It's not overpowered or anything, but it is inconsistent in my mind. It's all the other proposed positive effects that feel like they'd push the power of the ship too high, for me anyway.
All this is pure speculation of course. After all I don't make games, I just play em.
Edited by Hippie Moosen40 minutes ago, Hippie Moosen said:That's the option that feels like the best alternative to what I think it'll be. I wouldn't mind this being the final ruling on it, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Mainly because of the Coordinate options. I don't think and ARC should be able to K turn and follow it up with coordinate. I can't think of a ship that can pull that off, but I could be wrong there.
It's not overpowered or anything, but it is inconsistent in my mind. It's all the other proposed positive effects that feel like they'd push the power of the ship too high, for me anyway.
All this is pure speculation of course. After all I don't make games, I just play em.
Even though the crew card providing it is Palp? Interesting.
41 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:Even though the crew card providing it is Palp? Interesting.
Yeah, pretty much. Palp is awesome, and he does have unlimited power and all that, but I don't think he needs to grant you the ability to ignore stress for his action, on top of the action itself. he's going to have other effects in addition, and seems to be able to flip for yet more stuff. I can't make out anything of value on either side apart from the fact that he flips and somehow interacts with force, but he does look to be on the wordy side. unless most of his additional effects are detrimental, I could see his cost being really high with the additional upside on his action.
But if I'm wrong, I'll happily fly The Senate into battle and pull some difficult maneuvers to get him where he needs to be to support some high initiative Delta's.
Here is more info on Darth Sidious and by extension purple actions.
14 hours ago, Jehan Menasis said:My money is still on recharging a force token when you do a purple action.
Which essentially is the equivalent of evade + calculate, or evade + a single use of a reactive force power.
This just doesn't make sense with Sidious/Palpatin's purple coordinate though. You won't have a way to spend your force before your action phase on crew force, so that version would simply never trigger.
It'll cost a force. I'd be like, 99% sure. It MIGHT be that it's white but can be linked off anything, Vader-style, for a force, which would be a little more itneresting, but regenning a force simply doesn't make sense as you have to equip a force upgrade (sense or supernatural) to be able to spend force before you move, which in turn means that anyone with one force and no slot doesn't ever get the benefit of the purple-ness.
It'll cost a force somehow.
54 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:This just doesn't make sense with Sidious/Palpatin's purple coordinate though. You won't have a way to spend your force before your action phase on crew force, so that version would simply never trigger.
Or maybe There isn't a way that we know yet. Perhaps there are force power (dark side powers?) that discharge force tokens or prevent token recharge at the end phase.
Or maybe it's simply wasted on ships with a single force token.
At which point putting purple actions on crew cards would be totally pointless (i.e. their purple-ness would literally never be usable, there's no way for a non-force-slot ship to spend force before its actions), so why would they do it? We know they have.
9 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:This just doesn't make sense with Sidious/Palpatin's purple coordinate though. You won't have a way to spend your force before your action phase on crew force, so that version would simply never trigger.
It'll cost a force. I'd be like, 99% sure. It MIGHT be that it's white but can be linked off anything, Vader-style, for a force, which would be a little more itneresting, but regenning a force simply doesn't make sense as you have to equip a force upgrade (sense or supernatural) to be able to spend force before you move, which in turn means that anyone with one force and no slot doesn't ever get the benefit of the purple-ness.
It'll cost a force somehow.
This is a great argument against it recharging Force, though I could completely believe a non-Force using pilot can't take full advantage of Darth Sidious he is known for manipulation and working through agents that tend to be Force users. But this alongside the possibility of a coordinate chain that recharges the Force for several pilots I think makes option 5 very unlikely now.
I think that really leaves us with option 1, 2, and 6 as the most likely choices. 1 would be the most powerful/flexible though still drawing off a limited resource. 2 is probably the most balanced and makes purple actions/Jedi very unique. 6 is still just a straight up cost that will make most of the effects marginal at best (meaning upgrades will need to be cheap to be worth taking, and the Evade probably won't get used).
Options for reference (adding likelihood notes):
- A purple action can be preformed as a free action after completing another action at the cost of a Force token, or as a normal white action.
- A purple action can be preformed even while stressed at the cost of a Force token.
- A purple action can be preformed after a partially completed maneuver at the cost of a Force token. (Less likely, being rather niche)
- A combination of 1, 2 and/or 3. (Less likely, would be very powerful)
- When you preform this action recharge a force token. (Unlikely for multiple reasons)
- A force token must be spent to use the action at all.
5 minutes ago, GeneralVryth said:This is a great argument against it recharging Force, though I could completely believe a non-Force using pilot can't take full advantage of Darth Sidious he is known for manipulation and working through agents that tend to be Force users. But this alongside the possibility of a coordinate chain that recharges the Force for several pilots I think makes option 5 very unlikely now.
I think that really leaves us with option 1, 2, and 6 and the most likely choices. 1 would be the most powerful/flexible though still drawing off a limited resource. 2 is probably the most balanced and makes purple actions/Jedi very unique. 6 is still just a straight up cost that will make most of the effects marginal at best (meaning upgrades will need to be cheap to be worth taking, and the Evade probably won't get used).
Options for reference (adding likelihood notes):
- A purple action can be preformed as a free action after completing another action at the cost of a Force token, or as a normal white action.
- A purple action can be preformed even while stressed at the cost of a Force token.
- A purple action can be preformed after a partially completed maneuver at the cost of a Force token. (Less likely, being rather niche)
- A combination of 1, 2 and/or 3. (Less likely, would be very powerful)
- When you preform this action recharge a force token. (Unlikely for multiple reasons)
- A force token must be spent to use the action at all.
6 most likely but I think 2 is good trade off.
3 hours ago, GeneralVryth said:6. A force t oken must be spent to use the action at all.
3 hours ago, Sir13scott said:6 most likely but I think 2 is good trade off .
If you have to spend a force to use the action at all, it has to come with additional effects, consuming both your action and a force point would be ridiculously costly for just a basic action effect.
Now, admittedly, it does look like Sidious provides extra effects when you use his purple coordinate, so maybe.
2 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:
If you have to spend a force to use the action at all, it has to come with additional effects, consuming both your action and a force point would be ridiculously costly for just a basic action effect.
Now, admittedly, it does look like Sidious provides extra effects when you use his purple coordinate, so maybe.
Remember Sidious' bonus effect has its own cost (it gives the target ship a stress token).
So a general question to those who think it will be option 6 (or really anyone who wants to weigh), what option do you want it to be? I understand the concerns of options 1 through 5 being potentially very powerful (and thus needing to be costed appropriately), but option 6 just feels boring. The conversation makes me think of the Advance x1 and the Defender. A recurring conversation about the x1 is that it feels like it was nerfed or constrained to keep Vader (with an admittedly powerful ability) in check. The cost being while Vader is alright the rest of the ship's pilots feel very underwhelming. Which begs the question, why didn't they just make the ship better (cheaper is still an option and may happen) and Vader proportionally more expensive? The Defender is actually a great example of going the other way. It's a ship with a uniquely powerful dial and a great ship ability, alongside rock solid stats. It feels like an advanced super-fighter and plays accordingly. It also is costed accordingly as well. While there are few complaints about it being hard to kill there is no real concern about it being overpowered.
Taking that thinking and applying it to purple actions, if you could choose would you rather the effect be a positive effect that helps give Jedi in a craft specialized for them a unique feel with options (and by extension making them more powerful), or would you rather have an effect that constrains them limiting there power (under fears they be broken)?
My answer would be option 1. I don't think any of the options are truly game breaking (though I am concerned about the chain effect of option 5), and in general I think there are few truly game breaking effects. What's important is making sure that effects with lots of power cost a lot points.
I don't like option 6 because it penalizes the player for making use of the option disproportionate to the benefit they get from performing the action. So far the only two purple actions are Evade and Calculate. By charging to just use them a force user sacrifices the greater flexibility of the force charge. It needs to provide an equitable benefit, as in allowing that action to be performed while the ship is stressed and without cost when not stressed, or it will not be made use of. Option 6 is equitable to having a TIE Interceptor roll their 3 red at the cost of only rolling 2 green, the ship would rarely get played...
16 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:I don't like option 6 because it penalizes the player for making use of the option disproportionate to the benefit they get from performing the action. So far the only two purple actions are Evade and Calculate. By charging to just use them a force user sacrifices the greater flexibility of the force charge. It needs to provide an equitable benefit, as in allowing that action to be performed while the ship is stressed and without cost when not stressed, or it will not be made use of. Option 6 is equitable to having a TIE Interceptor roll their 3 red at the cost of only rolling 2 green, the ship would rarely get played...
Exactly. By needing to spend the force just to do the action, you are paying for the action twice. Whereas if you can spend the force to perform the action as a bonus action, that feels like spending a resource to gain a second action, instead of gaining a stress to gain a second action, which feels more appropriate.
Actually, now that I think about it, being able to spend a force to discard a stress would be a great ability for Jedi.
5 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:Actually, now that I think about it, being able to spend a force to discard a stress would be a great ability for Jedi.
I could see that as the ability of a single named Jedi pilot, not for Jedi in general though. That would be a very good ability.
1 hour ago, GeneralVryth said:Remember Sidious' bonus effect has its own cost (it gives the target ship a stress token).
So a general question to those who think it will be option 6 (or really anyone who wants to weigh ), what option do you want it to be? I understand the concerns of options 1 through 5 being potentially very powerful (and thus needing to be costed appropriately), but option 6 just feels boring. The conversation makes me think of the Advance x1 and the Defender. A recurring conversation about the x1 is that it feels like it was nerfed or constrained to keep Vader (with an admittedly powerful ability) in check. The cost being while Vader is alright the rest of the ship's pilots feel very underwhelming. Which begs the question , why didn't they just make the ship better (cheaper is still an option and may happen) and Vader proportionally more expensive? The Defender is actually a great example of going the other way. It's a ship with a uniquely powerful dial and a great ship ability, alongside rock solid stats. It feels like an advanced super-fighter and plays accordingly. It also is costed accordingly as well. While there are few complaints about it being hard to kill there is no real concern about it being overpowered.
Taking that thinking and applying it to purple actions, if you could choose would you rather the effect be a positive effect that helps give Jedi in a craft specialized for them a unique feel with options (and by extension making them more powerful), or would you rather have an effect that constrains them limiting there power (under fears they be broken)?
My answer would be option 1. I don't think any of the options are truly game breaking (though I am concerned about the chain effect of option 5), and in general I think there are few truly game breaking effects. What's important is making sure that effects with lots of power cost a lot points.
The action costing a force is a little boring, we can agree on that, but it isn't abusable. Then there's the whole consistency thing I brought up but I wont go over that again. I look at option 6 as a way allow certain force powers, or certain characters to add whole new actions to ships that they couldn't do otherwise without breaking the game. sure it's not all that powerful, but it is game changing to take a brawler like the ARC, and turn it into a coordinator. If it's done this way, we could see linked actions on something like the ETA-2 Actis that go from white to purple instead of white to red, or white to white like the SF does things. option 2 I could see happening, but because the action doesn't cost anything unless your stressed, it's way harder to keep things balanced if future cards allow for different purple actions.
Basically for me it boils down to, consistency with the red actions, and possible future design space. 2 is interesting and could allow your Jedi to ignore stress more than the Deltas seem like they'll do already, but 6 while a bit underwhelming allows for more interesting and difficult to break possibilities for future ships and upgrades IMO.
1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:I don't like option 6 because it penalizes the player for making use of the option disproportionate to the benefit they get from performing the action. So far the only two purple actions are Evade and Calculate. By charging to just use them a force user sacrifices the greater flexibility of the force charge. It needs to provide an equitable benefit, as in allowing that action to be performed while the ship is stressed and without cost when not stressed, or it will not be made use of. Option 6 is equitable to having a TIE Interceptor roll their 3 red at the cost of only rolling 2 green, the ship would rarely get played...
I get what you're saying, but there are actions that penalize you for taking them that exist already. it's about choice. With purple evade on the delta you can choose to guarantee an evade or you can choose to gamble on the possibility of a focus result. Force needs to be looked at as something you could hold onto for dice mods, but also as something to be spent for effects beyond simply getting a focus result changed. Darth Sideous seems to offer ample reason to use his force token for coordinate, as he gives a force or focus to his friendly as well as the action and a stress token. in that trade you are getting so much more than the value of a single force.
Edited by Hippie Moosen14 minutes ago, Hippie Moosen said:The action costing a force is a little boring, we can agree on that, but it isn't abusable. Then there's the whole consistency thing I brought up but I wont go over that again. I look at option 6 as a way allow certain force powers, or certain characters to add whole new actions to ships that they couldn't do otherwise without breaking the game. sure it's not all that powerful, but it is game changing to take a brawler like the ARC, and turn it into a coordinator. If it's done this way, we could see linked actions on something like the ETA-2 Actis that go from white to purple instead of white to red, or white to white like the SF does things. option 2 I could see happening, but because the action doesn't cost anything unless your stressed, it's way harder to keep things balanced if future cards allow for different purple actions.
Basically for me it boils down to, consistency with the red actions, and possible future design space. 2 is interesting and could allow your Jedi to ignore stress more than the Deltas seem like they'll do already, but 6 while a bit underwhelming allows for more interesting and difficult to break possibilities for future ships and upgrades IMO.
I get what you're saying, but there are actions that penalize you for taking them that exist already. it's about choice. With purple evade on the delta you can choose to guarantee an evade or you can choose to gamble on the possibility of a focus result. Force needs to be looked at as something you could hold onto for dice mods, but also as something to be spent for effects beyond simply getting a focus result changed. Darth Sideous seems to offer ample reason to use his force token for coordinate, as he gives a force or focus to his friendly as well as the action and a stress token. in that trade you are getting so much more than the value of a single force.
How many force charges does Palp/Sidious provide to the ship he's equipped to?
See, consistency for me would be if you gained a force token by performing the action. Red action, gain a stress token; purple action, gain a force token. Except that seems like it would either be very over powered, or totally useless.
2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:How many force charges does Palp/Sidious provide to the ship he's equipped to?
One recurring. Some of our multi lingual denizens did a translation on him that states his coordinate grants a focus or force charge to the coordinated ship in addition to the normal effect. He also applies a stress token to the ship after all that. According to the translation of course. Could be inaccurate.
1 minute ago, Hippie Moosen said:One recurring. Some of our multi lingual denizens did a translation on him that states his coordinate grants a focus or force charge to the coordinated ship in addition to the normal effect. He also applies a stress token to the ship after all that. According to the translation of course. Could be inaccurate.
"gange 1 marqueur de stress" seems pretty dang easy to translate... I was digging while you were.
30 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:See, consistency for me would be if you gained a force token by performing the action. Red action, gain a stress token; purple action, gain a force token. Except that seems like it would either be very over powered, or totally useless.
Yeah I feel like there's no in between on that version. You'll either love it or realize that it isn't helping at all.
For me the consistency thing is about there being a cost to the action. That's why I feel losing force matches gaining a stress in that regard.
I think consistency will look like the ship being powerful and expensive because people want the Jedi to be **** good.