37 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Not really sure about that, it did save the Empire from IG-88 making use of its new toy...

Another reason to hate Scum. At Endor, the Rebel and Imperial players actually planned out their lists legitimately, and went for a fun, straightforward game. The Scum player just went, "I have a special ability that lets me straight-up steal your Death Star and use it myself! Even when stressed!" and was clearly just playing to troll everyone else.

2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Another reason to hate Scum. At Endor, the Rebel and Imperial players actually planned out their lists legitimately, and went for a fun, straightforward game. The Scum player just went, "I have a special ability that lets me straight-up steal your Death Star and use it myself! Even when stressed!" and was clearly just playing to troll everyone else.

Have you honestly looked at what the non-Mandos have available to them??? Janky **** is all we've got, other than Drea.

13 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Have you honestly looked at what the non-Mandos have available to them??? Janky **** is all we've got, other than Drea.

Exactly

8 hours ago, JJ48 said:

This sounds like a great idea in a scenario or campaign. In standard battles, though, we really don't need every single ship in every single faction.

So FFG should only make product that supports Standard??

There are other kinds of players. . .

3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

So FFG should only make product that supports Standard??

When did I say anything even remotely like that?

The thing is, though, if I'm playing scenarios or campaigns, I can already fly a Lambda as a Rebel or an X-Wing as Imperial. Adding new products to do that wouldn't really allow such players to do anything new and would reduce the faction identity of Standard games, so why do that?

Instead, I think FFG should release more scenarios and campaigns, and then cross-faction stuff could happen with ships that have been properly stolen, as it should be.

16 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

The  thing is, though, if I'm playing scenarios or campaigns, I can already fly a Lambda as a Rebel or an X-Wing as I  mperial.      Ad  di  ng new products to do that wouldn't really allow such players to do anything new and would reduce the faction identity of Standard games, so why do t  hat? 

THIS!

Adding cross faction ships that are cross faction in the same way as regular faction ships are ID’d doesn’t work because all that is really doing is altering the baseline. What we need is a totally different way of organizing ships (and maybe upgrades?) that works for scenario play. That way tournament players can simply ignore this aspect, and scenario players have an “official” means of defining squad limitations that is not bound to what works for competitive formats. Quick build cards might be an answer, but I feel such a system needs more. I just don’t know what.

Never mind. Was already semi-suggested...

51 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

When did I say anything even remotely like that?

The thing is, though, if I'm playing scenarios or campaigns, I can already fly a Lambda as a Rebel or an X-Wing as Imperial. Adding new products to do that wouldn't really allow such players to do anything new and would reduce the faction identity of Standard games, so why do that?

Instead, I think FFG should release more scenarios and campaigns, and then cross-faction stuff could happen with ships that have been properly stolen, as it should be.

Initially, it came off that way to me.

Now, I see what you mean and couldn't agree more.

OTOH, with the lack of Epic, it's hard to imagine that scenario packs are likely at all.

15 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

The main loss would be faction-themed livery, but they could occasionally rotate paint jobs.

And this is a major problem, especially for causal collectors or players, who might keep missing out on certian paint jobs because the richer, or more hardcore players keep buying them out. So no, this is beyond a horrible idea.

14 hours ago, Forgottenlore said:

Adding cross faction ships that are cross faction in the same way as regular faction ships are ID’d doesn’t work because all that is really doing is altering the baseline. What we need is a totally different way of organizing ships (and maybe upgrades?) that works for scenario play. That way tournament players can simply ignore this aspect, and scenario players have an “official” means of defining squad limitations that is not bound to what works for competitive formats. Quick build cards might be an answer, but I feel such a system needs more. I just don’t know what.

Many times I have advocated for releases that are for casual play only, that are "banned" from Standard. This allows player to have fun within the IP ("because Star Wars") and keeps it from "messing up" Standard.

Of course, then people whine that everything needs to be usable for Standard, and so then nothing goofy fun can every be had for the game.

10 hours ago, Zeoinx said:

And this is a major problem, especially for causal collectors or players, who might keep missing out on certian paint jobs because the richer, or more hardcore players keep buying them out. So no, this is beyond a horrible idea.

Of all the problems this game could have, "screwing players out of paint jobs" (would that even be a thing?) is the least of it.

It's entirely possible that has already happened--will we see a red StarViper again??

25 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Many times I have advocated for releases that are for casual play only, that are "banned" from Standard. This allows player to have fun within the IP ("because Star Wars") and keeps it from "messing up" Standard.

Of course, then people whine that everything needs to be usable for Standard, and so then nothing goofy fun can every be had for the game.

I think the problem, less so than whining, is how do you implement these casual only items within the existing gameplay framework while denoting they can't be used in standard play?

Say FFG make a big campaign box, and it comes with Rebel cardboard for the Lambda and a Tydirium title. The title, pilot cards and ship bases all need to function identically to the standard play versions.

So do you just add a 'casual play only' clause to the restrictions box on the cards? What about the ship base? Do you stamp 'casual only' across the middle?

Or do you just institute a tournament ban list via the app? What do you do when people try and list build with their Han Solo Lambda pilot card that they're physically holding but can't listed anywhere in the squad builder?

I'm not saying that you can't do all of these things, but that it's.... clunky.

I think it's really telling that the majority of content in Armada's Corellian Conflict was either just straight rules based or supporting material like the map, score cards and scar marking tokens. All of the content that fit the existing Armada mechanics - the squadron cards, objectives and squadron bases - were usable in the standard game.

Epic got around this by creating new upgrade types, a new ship type and then limiting all of the 'Epic only' content via upgrades or the Huge ship only tag.

That's not so easily done if you want your 'goofy' content to be usable on the existing ships.

Again, I'm not saying none of that can be done. But the more you separate the content, the more you separate your target market out. And the more work you have to put in to coming with a system to differentiate the content, the less it becomes worth it vs the target market.

FFG would need to be sure that the market for casual shenanigans is big enough to make segregated content profitable. And no, anecdotes about how all your friends love casual play do not cut it. Ultimately, FFG want every X-Wing player to have at least some interest in or use for every bit of content they put out.

37 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Many  times I have advocated for releases that are for casual play only, that are "banned" from Standard. This allows p  layer to have fun within the IP ("because Star Wars") and keeps it from "messing up" Standard.

Of course, then people whine that everything needs to be usable for Standard, and so then nothing goofy fun can every be had for the game.  

Which is why I said a different way of organizing content for scenarios, rather than whole new mechanical content. It would be a lot easier for tournament players to ignore a pamphlet of scenario rules, or things like quick build cards, than whole 3xpansions that “look like” they could be used in tournaments, but actually can’t.

31 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

Which is why I said a different way of organizing content for scenarios, rather than whole new mechanical content. It would be a lot easier for tournament players to ignore a pamphlet of scenario rules, or things like quick build cards, than whole 3xpansions that “look like” they could be used in tournaments, but actually can’t.

Well, "print and play" PDFs would be a great way to go. Yoy could then just slide a printed paper "card" in a sleeve for play. And it could be put into the app under "casual only," since there are already filters for 2E vs. Extended. IMHO, the most important part of this is to have Official Content for things like the Shuttle Tydirium to:

A. Allow for FLGS/public play of these items because the abilities have been "standardized"

and

B. Show the casual players who are in this simply because they love SW and do not want to compete that they are actually considered important customers.

38 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

I think the problem, less so than whining, is how do you implement these casual only items within the existing gameplay framework while denoting they can't be used in standard play?

Say FFG make a big campaign box, and it comes with Rebel cardboard for the Lambda and a Tydirium title. The title, pilot cards and ship bases all need to function identically to the standard play versions.

So do you just add a 'casual play only' clause to the restrictions box on the cards? What about the ship base? Do you stamp 'casual only' across the middle?

Or do you just institute a tournament ban list via the app? What do you do when people try and list build with their Han Solo Lambda pilot card that they're physically holding but can't listed anywhere in the squad builder?

I'm not saying that you can't do all of these things, but that it's.... clunky.

I think it's really telling that the majority of content in Armada's Corellian Conflict was either just straight rules based or supporting material like the map, score cards and scar marking tokens. All of the content that fit the existing Armada mechanics - the squadron cards, objectives and squadron bases - were usable in the standard game.

Epic got around this by creating new upgrade types, a new ship type and then limiting all of the 'Epic only' content via upgrades or the Huge ship only tag.

That's not so easily done if you want your 'goofy' content to be usable on the existing ships.

Again, I'm not saying none of that can be done. But the more you separate the content, the more you separate your target market out. And the more work you have to put in to coming with a system to differentiate the content, the less it becomes worth it vs the target market.

FFG would need to be sure that the market for casual shenanigans is big enough to make segregated content profitable. And no, anecdotes about how all your friends love casual play do not cut it. Ultimately, FFG want every X-Wing player to have at least some interest in or use for every bit of content they put out.

Personally, I think most of your suggestions are quite good, and not clunky at all. All you need is an icon for the cards or a different card color to make these products obviously non-standard. And the All Hallowed App (if it ever works) would be the ultimate failsafe.

X-Wing Players should be the target market. Whether they complete, play epic, or only play at home. This game needs to stop pretending there is only one kind of player worth focusing on.

As for the last part, here's my idea for the Test Product. Release the Bladewing with its superweapon. The model has been sculpted, it just needs a new paint job. It's a small expansion pack. Heck, I've even done a design that could work. See how it sells. Who knows, maybe tournament players will even buy one simply because they want to have an orange B-Wing for Ten Numb.

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

And the All Hallowed App (if it ever works)

The app works fine now.

It could use a cleaner interface, a few QoL improvements and the ability to see dials but everything works. The points are correct, the formats limit things correctly and the upgrade availability is correct. It is perfectly possible to build viable lists in for all current content.

Don't let your cynicism for 2e make you look like an ***.

7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

X-Wing Players should be the target market.

Fine. Just completely ignore my point then.

Casual and standard are separate markets. You can't get around that. At the moment, there isn't even 'standard' - it's just 'the game'. That's it, that's what X-Wing looks like. One ruleset dictating how you play.

A format that includes any content that is segregated from the current game will split the market. That is my point. FFG would need to decide if the subset of current X-Wing players (and yes, it is a subset almost by definition) who are also interested in an official, separate casual format is the worth the effort to develop for.

You can't target every single X-Wing player for that. You simply can't. There will always be players who don't care for it.

And before you say it, yes I'm aware that you're not interested in 'standard' play. That just means you are no longer part of FFG's target market. You've been accounted for already in their projections. Claim all you want that FFG should be targeting people like you who want to the play the game but apparently won't unless FFG release a very specific version of the game tailored to your exact desires, but that still doesn't stop the fact that makes you a separate market.

FFG are by no means guaranteed to make more money by designing a new sort of product to hook you in.

I hope for your sake that they're eventually able to work something out. That their market research falls in line with what you think is the case, and that they find there are masses of potential players out there just waiting on a casual format that's chock full of as much game warping content as they can fit in the box. I really do because new formats would be great.

But expecting FFG to do that, or criticising them for not doing it because you say so is naive.

10 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

The app works fine now.

It could use a cleaner interface, a few QoL improvements and the ability to see dials but everything works. The points are correct, the formats limit things correctly and the upgrade availability is correct. It is perfectly possible to build viable lists in for all current content.

Don't let your cynicism for 2e make you look like an ***.

How am I supposed to know that?

The update log has not been change since September, and I got tired of wading thru error reports to see what was going on.

Quote

And before you say it, yes I'm aware that you're not interested in 'standard' play. That just means you are no longer part of FFG's target market. You've been accounted for already in their projections. Claim all you want that FFG should be targeting people like you who want to the play the game but apparently won't unless FFG release a very specific version of the game tailored to your exact desires, but that still doesn't stop the fact that makes you a separate market.

FFG are by no means guaranteed to make more money by designing a new sort of product to hook you in .

I hope for your sake that they're eventually able to work something out. That their market research falls in line with what you think is the case, and that they find there are masses of potential players out there just waiting on a casual format that's chock full of as much game warping content as they can fit in the box. I really do because new formats would be great.

But expecting FFG to do that, or criticising them for not doing it because you say so is naive.

So, you spend an entire paragraph claiming that I am expecting FFG to cater to my personal whims only, and yet you wouldn't mind if such a product actually existed.

So, is it just my desires we are talking about, or might FFG actually be missing an opportunity to serve the greater community?

From what I could tell, HotAC was a huge success. FFG certainly missed the boat on that.

31 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

FFG certainly missed the boat on that

I mean “on the boat” has always been kind of vague in terms of how long it would take stuff to arrive.

13 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

How am I supposed to know that?

The update log has not been change since September, and I got tired of wading thru error reports to see what was going on.

So, you spend an entire paragraph claiming that I am expecting FFG to cater to my personal whims only, and yet you wouldn't mind if such a product actually existed.

So, is it just my desires we are talking about, or might FFG actually be missing an opportunity to serve the greater community?

From what I could tell, HotAC was a huge success. FFG certainly missed the boat on that.

If you think you can do a better job making a game, why dont YOU start producing a table top title since you're so tired of error reports.

7 hours ago, Zeoinx said:

If you think you can do a better job making a game, why dont YOU start producing a table top title since you're so tired of error reports.

What is with you people attacking me because I think the game could be better?? As if I'm the only one--what with a E-Wing Fix thread and a Large-Base Fix thread both on the front page.

My only frickin point is that there is no updated fix log, so how can I tell what's going on with the app?

And I am not the only one who enjoys the game OUTSIDE of the Standard format.

On 11/16/2018 at 1:33 AM, Darth Meanie said:

So FFG should only make product that supports Standard??

There are other kinds of players. . .

Not exclusively, but mostly, yes.

Armada has the Corellian Conflict, which is very nice non-standard addition, but still list of the stuff in that expansion do fit into standard.

Likewise the Super Star Destroyer comes with two sets of ship cards, two versions usable in standard, two only usable in non-standard (because they cost so much). But all the other upgrades and be rules apply to standard.

6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

What is with you people attacking me because I think the game could be better?? As if I'm the only one--what with a E-Wing Fix thread and a Large-Base Fix thread both on the front page.

My only frickin point is that there is no updated fix log, so how can I tell what's going on with the app?

And I am not the only one who enjoys the game OUTSIDE of the Standard format.

Yes, you are not the only person who enjoys the game standard format, but the way you go about the complaining is just annoying. Its like your entire goal is to live up to your screen name.

On 11/16/2018 at 10:20 AM, Darth Meanie said:

Well, "print and play" PDFs would be a great way to go. Yoy could then just slide a printed paper "card" in a sleeve for play. And it could be put into the app under "casual only," since there are already filters for 2E vs. Extended. IMHO, the most important part of this is to have Official Content for things like the Shuttle Tydirium to:

A. Allow for FLGS/public play of these items because the abilities have been "standardized"

and

B. Show the casual players who are in this simply because they love SW and do not want to compete that they are actually considered important customers.

Personally, I think most of your suggestions are quite good, and not clunky at all. All you need is an icon for the cards or a different card color to make these products obviously non-standard. And the All Hallowed App (if it ever works) would be the ultimate failsafe.

X-Wing Players should be the target market. Whether they complete, play epic, or only play at home. This game needs to stop pretending there is only one kind of player worth focusing on.

As for the last part, here's my idea for the Test Product. Release the Bladewing with its superweapon. The model has been sculpted, it just needs a new paint job. It's a small expansion pack. Heck, I've even done a design that could work. See how it sells. Who knows, maybe tournament players will even buy one simply because they want to have an orange B-Wing for Ten Numb.

Love your ideas! The print and play would be awesome.

The great misfit of this game is to fix to much ships and upgrade to faction. Expanded Universe was more "liquid" in approach. In her beginning the Rebel Alliance uses whatever they can scrounge buy get ... or steal ... from Old Republic, Uglies, Separatist Alliance, Empire. When they became the New Republic started to issue standards. And were practically annihilated by the Vong. The Empire used initially a lot of old rep vintage, then issue the fallimentary doctrines which after Thrawn get efficiently reformed. The rest of the galaxy did more or less what they wanted. This game needs to free ships, giving them a pilot slot for upgrade cards dedicated to the characters and their piloting skills.