6 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Regarding the Forum Post, the only thing that could possibly refer to would be the two Mines available, as you can't TrajSim a Mine now, can you?

Zuvio can launch a Mine.

19 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Regarding the Forum Post, the only thing that could possibly refer to would be the two Mines available, as you can't TrajSim a Mine now, can you?

Are you suggesting that proton bombs and seismic bombs can normally be launched?

2 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

So, if Deathfire cannot launch, as his pilot card allows, a phantom device that can't be launched, what can he launch now, in order to be worth the points?

nothing, since there are no devices that can normally be launched (unless you include trajectory simulator being used in "normally"). his pilot ability is still relevant - and tie bombers are quite cheap, so i think he's worth the points.

2 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

If your answer is nothing, then you obviously don't understand the Exceptions clause in the Rules Reference.

Deathfire allows a Launch of a device, under specific circumstances. The basic rules for launch also  give us the location of the required template.

what? you mean this? "If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence." - that's in the golden rules, it's not an exceptions clause. i understand it. i still don't think he can launch devices without further reference, though. all devices currently say they are dropped with the one straight template. lets look at what the rules say about this.

currently, all devices indicate a template used for dropping. no devices indicate a template used for launching, other cards (such as constable zuvio and trajectory simulator) do that. or are you saying that the template indications on the cards for dropping should be used for launching with deathfire? there is no clear indication that should be the case anywhere. instead, FFG have come forward and clarified that deathfire cannot launch devices that cannot normally be launched.

please note that constable zuvio and trajectory simulator both say which template to use - and that it can be done instead of dropping. dropping and launching are not the same thing, so arguing that the same template should be used is very far fetched indeed.

i agree with his pilot ability taking precedence, but only for devices that indicate a template used for launching, which is none at the moment. having an errata for his pilot ability to indicate a template he can use for launching to make him more cost efficient is desirable. i'm sorry to say that's not where we're at as of right now.

2 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

The important ruling is the fact it's listed as DEVICE, which allows anything from the Device upgrade bar.

If your imaginative launchable by anybody devices ever appear, then, fantastic. K-Wings will become relevant again. As will Daethfire. Until then, Deathfire has the rules and ability to launch a device, there is more than enough manners to launch devices, and especially one that has no access to Trajectory Simulator.

  Your argument, therefore, is void.

Regarding the Forum Post, the only thing that could possibly refer to would be the two Mines available, as you can't TrajSim a Mine now, can you?

It's like the foolish arguments over console fire denying a firing opportunity, or people trying to make cases that Rigged Cargo Chute was a device.

Nope, the important ruling right now is the one made by FFG in the thread called "X-wing official rulings" at the very top of this forum. It says:

Q: After being destroyed, can “Deathfire” [TIE Bomber] launch a device that cannot normally be launched?

A: No.

- and that's that. i would love to see some inherently launchable devices as well. there are a lot of manners to launch devices, yes, but if you're launching a device, you should follow the rules instead of making up rules to be able to launch a device.

i don't understand what you mean by "and especially one that has no access to Trajectory Simulator." - devices don't have access to trajectory simulator. some ships do.

his argument is perfectly valid.

you cannot normally launch devices at all, only constable zuvio can normally launch devices. with trajectory simulator, it's with specific restrictions, such as only during the systems phase and only with the speed five template.

trajectory simulator is trajectory simulator, it's not "normally". trajectory simulator specifies bombs, so you cannot launch mines with it. constable zuvio can launch mines no problem, though.

it's not strange that people think rigged cargo is a device, since it's listed under device rules in the rules reference. it's an illicit, but it's not a device. when it's dropped, it's an obstacle called loose cargo. would be pretty fun to switch a rigged cargo onto zuvio with cikatro and launch it, but zuvio specifies device, so it cannot be done. someone could still make a case for it, though. about as valid a case as you have made for deathfire being able to launch devices without specifying a template.

console fire doesn't prevent you from firing even if it kills you before you engage, since per the simultaneous fire rule, ships are not removed from the game before all the ships at the current initiative have engaged during the engagement phase. i can still understand why everyone wouldn't understand this, though. it's not obvious unless you actually read the rules.

again, i would love to see the deathfire situation clarified further - and hopefully even changed, but i believe we're stuck with it at the moment.

Constable Zuvio requires his ability to "normally launch" devices, therefore, under your logic, all current devices can be "normally launched" which allows Deathfire to Launch.

Constable Zuvio has a special ability.

Deathfire has a Special Ability.

A Firespray pilot has a special ability allowing different templates to be used.

There are all exceptions to the standard rules. These abilities all allow either out of sequence effects or overrule all or portions of either basic rules or upgrades.

Why, then, is it so difficult to understand that Deathfire can launch, using the template listed on an upgrade card, according to his ability?

Everybody here is trying to say why he can't, yet, they are still ignoring the fact his ability says he specifically can launch a device. Barring any template reference, using the one listed on the card, as default, where his ability is overriding the drop aspect when he wants to launch.

As for the point about the location of Cargo Chute, it's a persistent template, listed as an Illicit upgrade, not a device. It was never that hard. People just wanted to break the system before it was even a week old.

7 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

As for the point about the location of Cargo Chute, it's a persistent template, listed as an Illicit upgrade, not a device. It was never that hard. People just wanted to break the system before it was even a week old.

it's listed under device rules in the rules reference, so it's not strange that some people think it's a device.

10 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Constable Zuvio requires his ability to "normally launch" devices, therefore, under your logic, all current devices can be "normally launched" which allows Deathfire to Launch.

Constable Zuvio has a special ability.

Deathfire has a Special Ability.

A Firespray pilot has a special ability allowing different templates to be used.

There are all exceptions to the standard rules. These abilities all allow either out of sequence effects or overrule all or portions of either basic rules or upgrades.

Why, then, is it so difficult to understand that Deathfire can launch, using the template listed on an upgrade card, according to his ability?

Everybody here is trying to say why he can't, yet, they are still ignoring the fact his ability says he specifically can launch a device. Barring any template reference, using the one listed on the card, as default, where his ability is overriding the drop aspect when he wants to launch.

Deathfire can most certainly launch a device, no one is saying he can't.

What we're saying is that, currently, his ability does not allow him to launch any device we currently have in 2.0.

Every other ability that allow you to launch a device (Traj Sim, Zuvio) and/or says to alter how a device is placed (Emon, Bombardier) uses the word Instead in its text, meaning it allows you to place the device in a way Not Listed on the device card itself.

Deathfire is missing both the Instead along with what method (template) one would use to Launch a device.

13 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

Constable Zuvio requires his ability to "normally launch" devices, therefore, under your logic, all current devices can be "normally launched" which allows Deathfire to Launch.

Constable Zuvio has a special ability.

Deathfire has a Special Ability.

A Firespray pilot has a special ability allowing different templates to be used.

There are all exceptions to the standard rules. These abilities all allow either out of sequence effects or overrule all or portions of either basic rules or upgrades.

Why, then, is it so difficult to understand that Deathfire can launch, using the template listed on an upgrade card, according to his ability?

Everybody here is trying to say why he can't, yet, they are still ignoring the fact his ability says he specifically can launch a device. Barring any template reference, using the one listed on the card, as default, where his ability is overriding the drop aspect when he wants to launch.

you're making things up. there is no indication what template he should use. the device upgrade cards only specify a template used for dropping, not for launching. other cards that let you lauch specify a template. deathfire does not.

there is no such thing as a normal launch outside of specific circumstances. you can normally launch devices with trajectory simulator during the systems phase with a speed five template. constable zuvio can normaly launch devices with a speed one template.

even skilled bombardier specifies a template for dropping. there are several cards that lets you drop with specific templates. you are assuming that the templates specified for dropping is meant for launching as well. it's very far fetched indeed, as stated earlier.

what about the nimble bomber ability? are you going to assume deathfire can launch with a bank one template as well then? it's the same logic.

Trajectory Simulator and Constable Zuvio are not normal. They alter the rules governing the deployment of a device.

There are no devices that can normally be launched. Therefore, there are currently no devices that can be launched using Deathfire's ability.

I understand where some of the issues come from.

For example, Sabine Wren says "perform a boost action or barrel roll action" and she can Boost without it being on her action bar. However, Deathfire does not work like that. Per FFG, the way that Deathfire works is like a ship which has been coordinated. It can perform an action, but that'll mean only an action on the ships action bar, one of their upgrades, or one of their damage cards. Deathfire's bomb placement must follow the normal rules on the card. This means Deathfire cannot launch any current device, but could launch some hypothetical future device, or use some hypothetical future Gunner card to launch instead of drop (Mad Bomber: when you would drop a device, you must launch it instead using the 1-straight template).

It would have been better if the general term "drop or launch a device" was something which clearly separated it from the method of placement, like if their general term was "place a device" or "deploy a device." However, they went with "drop or launch a device" as the general term, like "perform an action," and FFG have clarified this explicitly.

They have provided a specific answer to how Deathfire works.

@theBitterFig you might want to put in an edit to change Deathrain to Deathfire

On 11/10/2018 at 7:18 PM, theBitterFig said:

I understand where some of the issues come from.

For example, Sabine Wren says "perform a boost action or barrel roll action" and she can Boost without it being on her action bar. However, Deathfire does not work like that.

But he does.

Sabine let's you preform a boost or barrel roll of able, you can't do them if you would land on a rock or overlap a ship. Deathfire lets you launch a device if able you can't if you have nothing that can be launched.

It works exactly the same. Sabine does not overrule all of the requirements for doing a boost or barrel roll just allows it to happen if you can do it, same with deathfire's launch.

I thought the 'All doesn't include zero' thread was the worst thread on this forum but I have been proved wildly wrong. It's this one where people are arguing against an official ruling from FFG about how something works.

1 hour ago, AramoroA said:

I thought the 'All doesn't include zero' thread was the worst thread on this forum but I have been proved wildly wrong. It's this one where people are arguing against an official ruling from FFG about how something works.

Yep that is the "funny" part of this thread... ffg already answered this and people still argue...

Something to consider is that 2e is still relatively new and not all the players have shed their 1e mindset. Myself included, since I still play 1e with friends that have not made the transition yet for various reasons.

When I first read the OP's question my thought was the 1 straight. Why? The cards say to use the 1 straight and Deathrain's ability from 1e. Then someone pointed out FFG's official ruling. Hm, what can't normally be launched? AHA! Mines and debris clouds normally can't be launched. 1e thinking again. Then someone else pointed out that Zuvio could launch a mine. Dang it! Need to rethink this.

That leaves us with the word normally . What does normally mean. well it's in the rules under devices, mines and bombs, it says they can be dropped or launched. Should this cover normally? I thought so. But was told NO because it's not on an device upgrade card that includes the word launch.

That leaves upgrades and pilot abilities. Traj Sim for the upgrade and Zuvio and Deathfire for the pilot ability. Traj Sim is a no-go because you need an upgrade slot for it. Deathfire doesn't have one. That leaves Pilot Abilities. But again, I was told NO. Why? Because Zuvio's ability is very specific about the template to use.

Hm. To condense this down, launching is an exception to everything, even the rules and Deathfire's ability is a word on a card. Sort of like the back half of the quote, "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

Funny indeed.

15 hours ago, Icelom said:

But he does.

Sabine let's you preform a boost or barrel roll of able, you can't do them if you would land on a rock or overlap a ship. Deathfire lets you launch a device if able you can't if you have nothing that can be launched.

It works exactly the same. Sabine does not overrule all of the requirements for doing a boost or barrel roll just allows it to happen if you can do it, same with deathfire's launch.

I don't think we disagree about Deathfire and what he can or cannot do, but I think we're describing the context differently. Probably mostly describing Sabine differently.

Let me try to put it another way.

There is a difference between Sabine Wren's "When you reveal your dial, you may perform a Boost or Barrel Roll" and Lando Calrissian's "When you fully execute a Blue maneuver, a friendly ship at range 0-3 may perform an action." One is limited by the action bar, one is not. Sabine's ability adds something to a ship that it could not normally do. It must still follow the rules for Boosting, but both the TIE Fighter and Attack Shuttle *cannot* boost without her ability. Any actions Lando or his squadmates within range can do? They must have been on the action bar (or other special actions).

But while Sabine's ability grants her a Boost (something the ship can't normally do) under certain circumstances, Deathfire does not grant him the ability to do something he can't normally do. He's like Lando: Deathfire gets an extra timing window to do the same things his ship can do at any other time.

There is an open-ness and generic-ness to Lando's ability (perform an action) which lets people know that he can't let a friendly TIE Fighter Boost. Mostly. There have always been a few folks who've wondered "does a free action mean I could evade on an X-Wing?" or such but it's pretty minor and easily addressed. There is a specificity to Sabine's ability--these two particular, exact actions, and you'll do them whether or not they're on your action bar. It's easy to understand that someone could come into Deathfire and mistake his wording for a Sabine-like specificity, when in fact it is a Lando-like generality.

2 extra waves announced, and still got a useless pilot then?

FFG answered a random, ambiguous question, with a single word.

Heck, we know they don't know their backside from their elbow from looking at the RZ-2 A-Wing announcement article, the previewed Quick-Build Card, and one of the pilots they specifically talk about.

Therefore, until the question is actually cleaned up, with a list of what he CAN launch, it still remains open to his launching ability.

Either that, or they need to errata the card to remove the Launch phrase completely, until such time as it is actually useful to people who want to fly it. Not a difficult choice.

For now, though, it's just dead points better invested elsewhere.

I'd really hate to play some people on here, who just want to suck the fun out.

Placing a bomb or mine behind isn't useless, nor is a bonus attack. As with any pilot, there is a question of whether any player values the ability, but it clearly *does* something.

It doesn't need an errata, there doesn't need to be additional clarification.

On 11/12/2018 at 8:57 PM, Damo1701 said:

FFG answered a random, ambiguous question, with a single word.

Either that, or they need to errata the card to remove the Launch phrase completely, until such time as it is actually useful to people who want to fly it. Not a difficult choice

I think FFG had such a short answer because the card is probably meant

(drop or launch)=use a device

Now ,it can only drop. Maybe in a future we might see a talent ,mod ,skill...or different devices that allow launch. And they probably wanted this skill to correctly function with them

In 1e, was there ever a pilot released with an ability that couldn't be used upon release?

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

In 1e, was there ever a pilot released with an ability that couldn't be used upon release?

I can't think of one.

But so far, there isn't one in 2e either. Deathfire can drop any device he wants, and perform an attack. There's some *part* of his ability which doesn't work, but folks round here almost acting like he's got blank text.

And part of the reason why 1e never had stuff which didn't work is because FFG was frequently kind of dumb. They had to have a non-card-supported-ruling to get rid of Genius/Trajectory Simulator, because they didn't think hard enough about the interaction before hand. If some parts of cards being unused is the price for better future proofing, I think the sum total is still a good thing.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I can't think of one.

But so far, there isn't one in 2e either. Deathfire can drop any device he wants, and perform an attack. There's some *part* of his ability which doesn't work, but folks round here almost acting like he's got blank text.

And part of the reason why 1e never had stuff which didn't work is because FFG was frequently kind of dumb. They had to have a non-card-supported-ruling to get rid of Genius/Trajectory Simulator, because they didn't think hard enough about the interaction before hand. If some parts of cards being unused is the price for better future proofing, I think the sum total is still a good thing.

With the Genius - TSim situation, there was a considerable amount of time between the releases. FFG can almost be forgiven for letting that combo get by. Deathfire seems different to me. Not so much as future proofing but more like a lack of communication. An idea that never got properly transferred to a card.

It really doesn't matter now.

@Damo1701 , dude...

The very first sentence of the Rules Reference regarding Devices uses the same phrase as Deathfire. " Drop or Launch ".



Yet - I hope - you don't argue you should be able to launch in system phase each and every single device so far in the game, because of that?

As for the usefulness / uselessness of the card, let me introduce you to (Darth) Maul himself.

3 Waves in yet still no trace of a "Dark Side" upgrade anywhere . And it's not a typo, wording issue. It's FFG's way of calling " Hey, it would be cool if in the future we had these 'Dark Side' force upgrades, you know, just for the baddies, but like, Maul should allow Ezra and the Rebels to use one, because he was a baddie and tried to drag Ezra to being a baddie. What do we do boss?" And the boss told them to print this sentence that doesn't even make sense for now. But he knew it was good.

And so is the 1 out of 3 "permits" written on Deathfire - FFG finally getting ahead of themselves in predicting their own design patterns. "Boss, this Deathfire guy, right? Like, there's nothing he can launch right now to be honest, but wouldn't the slaves... I mean, the customers be pissed if by wave IV we print this cool new launch-only device he could carry but then, he couldn't really deploy on death? That's, like, kinda the fluff of him, innit?" And the boss told them to use this phrase for futureproofing. And he knew it was good.

On 11/12/2018 at 7:57 PM, Damo1701 said:

2 extra waves announced, and still got a useless pilot then?

FFG answered a random, ambiguous question, with a single word.

Heck, we know they don't know their backside from their elbow from looking at the RZ-2 A-Wing announcement article, the previewed Quick-Build Card, and one of the pilots they specifically talk about.

Therefore, until the question is actually cleaned up, with a list of what he CAN launch, it still remains open to his launching ability.

Either that, or they need to errata the card to remove the Launch phrase completely, until such time as it is actually useful to people who want to fly it. Not a difficult choice.

For now, though, it's just dead points better invested elsewhere.

I'd really hate to play some people on here, who just want to suck the fun out.

I love this reply. You actually believe, like really believe that what FFG put in the ruling's was not enough to clear this up. I thought you were arguing purely theoretically, because the forum post is not in the official rules yet, but no you actually think the official ruling is wrong or ambiguous enough that Deathfire might still work the way you think it does in whatever fever dream you're currently suffering from.

That does explain a lot though I guess. I do like that you think people on here suck the fun out of things, I can imagine you getting your Deathfire blown up and trying to launch a Mine then having to explain to your opponent over teh course of the next hour that 'well actually this ruling explicitly about this pilot in this situation doing this exact thing is far far too ambiguous to say he cannot do this thing the FAQ says he cannot do, I can see you're intent on just sucking the fun out of this game!'

On 11/12/2018 at 1:57 PM, Damo1701 said:

2 useless waves announced, and still got a useless pilot then?

How is he useless? he can still drop or shoot.

calm down.

On 11/12/2018 at 7:57 PM, Damo1701 said:

2 extra waves announced, and still got a useless pilot then?

Also, how do you know there's no self-launch-able device in waves 2 or 3?