2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This should be all you need.

If it meant launch, it would say launch.

As I said above, if it said drop or launch it would allow all devices to be launched. Only Zuvio can launch mines. Track SIM specifies bombs.

21 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

True, it does say drop and not drop or launch. Which makes sense because launching isn't a universal ability.

What, first, drop is not more universal, there is not rule that state so, and second, suddenly you ignore a requirement just to prove your point !??!

God I wish they'd made a keyword for devices that was like 'activate' or something. Which just meant 'follow the instructions on the device'.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

God I wish they'd made a keyword for devices that was like 'activate' or something. Which just meant 'follow the instructions on the device'.

Like "Deploy." There's even a precedent for it: Docked ships "Deploy" during the system phase.

'Release' would have worked.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

God I wish they'd made a keyword for devices that was like 'activate' or something. Which just meant 'follow the instructions on the device'.

Along with Rebel Han's not-a-reroll, this is one of the biggest rules flubs from FFG.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

But the torpedo card carries the restrictions of range and lock or focus. The device cards also carry the restriction of the one straight. True, it does say drop and not drop or launch. Which makes sense because launching isn't a universal ability.

This gets at it.

The "1-straight drop" is the range-and-arc, the lock-or-focus of a Torpedo or Missile upgrade.

Some things--Trajectory Simulator for devices, Instinctive Aim or Krassis Trelix for Cannon/Torpedo/Missile attacks--will change these requirements. Launch instead of drop. Use the rear arc instead of the front arc (this is also a rules issue, but let's keep it out of this thread).

Others, like Dengar (Jumpmaster) or Deathfire, don't fundamentally change how attacks or device placement happens, but change when you attack. They give you a bonus window in time to do these things.

9 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Also, I ask again: quote a rule that says what template to use when launching.

Not when dropping, when launching.

THere is no such rule.

Page 9, RRG under DEVICES. "To launch a device". Use the template identified on the upgrade card. The same text applies to dropping a device.

2 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Page 9, RRG under DEVICES. "To launch a device". Use the template identified on the upgrade card. The same text applies to dropping a device.

The card does not specify a template to use for launching, only for dropping.

This is really not difficult, and FFG have clearly uled it, I don't understand why this back and forth discussion continues.

That it could be better written in no way obviates the fact that it's currently clear.

(Also, that this is SO frakking unlikely to come up anyway. I literally don't think I've ever even HEARD of anyone actually USING deathfire.)

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The card does not specify a template to use for launching, only for dropping.

This is really not difficult, and FFG have clearly uled it, I don't understand why this back and forth discussion continues.

That it could be better written in no way obviates the fact that it's currently clear.

(Also, that this is SO frakking unlikely to come up anyway. I literally don't think I've ever even HEARD of anyone actually USING deathfire.)

So the only way, currently, to launch anything is either Traj SIM or Zuvio and Deathfire' s ability to launch doesn't work.

Since we both think the answer is obvious but our answers are on opposite sides of the fence I'll wait for FFG to rule. We're not going to sway the other. You could be right about Deathfire' s lack of use.

Correct, Zuvio and TSim are the only current ways to launch anything. Unless you count deploying docked ships forward.

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

I'll wait for FFG to rule. We're not going to sway the other. You could be right about Deathfire's lack of use.

As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, FFG have ruled on it.

12 hours ago, nexttwelveexits said:

Would you argue that Deathfire's ability allows you to drop a theoretical device that is normally only launched?

it's not a typo. You're allowed to drop or launch devices. But the ability alone isn't enough to let you launch something that can't be launched, in the same way that a cluster missile bonus attack doesn't let you attack someone out of arc.

Of course. Because Deathfire's ability says DROP or LAUNCH. Simple, clear, and effective.

The ability is clear-cut, and very simple. Deathfire's ability allows him to do exactly what's on his card.

Now, you try to argue that against somebody who is trying to use a pilot to the fullness of their ability, while you use your pilots to the fullness of their ability comes across as cheating.

What do we know can be launched? Bombs or Mines. Therefore, Deathfire can launch either. Unless you can point to a RULES REFERENCE page that denies that, stop cheating people out of their abilities.

Ambiguous questions on an internet forum do not count. The pilot card is clear.

So what template do you use?

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

So what template do you use?

As has been repeatedly answered, the one listed on the Upgrade Card.

Which, for every device currently released, is the 1 straight.

Clear?

1 hour ago, Damo1701 said:

As has been repeatedly answered, the one listed on the Upgrade Card.

Which, for every device currently released, is the 1 straight.

Clear?

Is a 1 straight, for dropping.

No template is listed for launching.

You are making stuff up.

3 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

Of course. Because Deathfire's ability says DROP or LAUNCH. Simple, clear, and effective.

The ability is clear-cut, and very simple. Deathfire's ability allows him to do exactly what's on his card.

Now, you try to argue that against somebody who is trying to use a pilot to the fullness of their ability, while you use your pilots to the fullness of their ability comes across as cheating.

What do we know can be launched? Bombs or Mines. Therefore, Deathfire can launch either. Unless you can point to a RULES REFERENCE page that denies that, stop cheating people out of their abilities.

Ambiguous questions on an internet forum do not count. The pilot card is clear.

We agree that the pilot card is clear. We agree that it allows Deathfire to drop or launch a device.

We disagree on whether or not this allows him alter how a given device is deployed. The reasoning is:

Every instance of deploying a device in the game of X-wing provides explicit instructions on how to do so, down to the specific template to be used. Deathfire's ability does not provide any such instructions, nor does it use the same kind of replacement language seen in abilities that permit launching devices that are normally dropped (i.e. you may launch *instead* of drop). Therefore, the reasonable conclusion is that Deathfire does not provide a method for deploying a device; rather, he provides an opportunity to do so, and nothing more. This has been specifically confirmed by FFG.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Is a 1 straight, for dropping.

No template is listed for launching.

You are making stuff up.

You are ignoring the Pilot Card. Which lists launching.

Looking at the rules reference, you look to find what template to use.

The template is listed on the card.

What templates are listed on all device cards currently available?

That's right, the 1 Straight.

Ergo, Deathfire can use the 1 Straight template to launch a device upon his death.

No making anything up. Just using all the tools available to actually use a pilot, the ability provided, and the rules available.

Simples!

4 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

Unless you can point to a RULES REFERENCE page that denies that, stop cheating people out of their abilities.

If you don't think that a post by FFG's "OfficialRules" account on a pinned thread called "X-Wing Official Rulings" that says 'This thread is an official source for game rulings, in addition to all documents on our website', is not an official place for rules, then I don't know what to say. I hope you're just trolling at this point..

9 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Just using all the tools available

Except for the official clarification from FFG?

Quote

Q: After being destroyed, can “Deathfire” [TIE Bomber] launch a device that cannot normally be launched?

A: No.

That's about as unambiguous as it gets, so I'm not really sure why you're digging in your heels on this one when it's already been settled. Not liking it isn't going to change how it works.

14 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

You are ignoring the Pilot Card. Which lists launching.

Looking at the rules reference, you look to find what template to use.

The template is listed on the card.

What templates are listed on all device cards currently available?

That's right, the 1 Straight.

Ergo, Deathfire can use the 1 Straight template to launch a device upon his death.

No making anything up. Just using all the tools available to actually use a pilot, the ability provided, and the rules available.

Simples!

No, you are.

As noted repeatedly, the pilot card provides an opportunity only.

Put it this way: DF dies. He has a Proton Torpedo left, and a lock on a target at R1. Can he Protorp that target?

If not, why not?

6 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

You are ignoring the Pilot Card. Which lists launching.

Looking at the rules reference, you look to find what template to use.

The template is listed on the card.

What templates are listed on all device cards currently available?

That's right, the 1 Straight.

Ergo, Deathfire can use the 1 Straight template to launch a device upon his death.

No making anything up. Just using all the tools available to actually use a pilot, the ability provided, and the rules available.

Simples!

Yes, Deathfire can launch a device, but only a device that itself grants the ability to be launched.

Currently, no device does this. All current devices only list dropping a device and the template to be used for dropping.

Looking at the specific FFG Ruling:

Q: After being destroyed, can “Deathfire” [TIE Bomber] launch a device that cannot normally be launched?

A: No.

Looking at the Rules Reference:

”Each (Device) upgrade allows a ship to drop or launch a specific device and provides additional rules for how that device behaves.”

Notice in the RRG that it leaves it to the device itself to indicate how it specifically launched or dropped; why would FFG rule the way it did on Deathfire at all if you could use the 1-straight to launch as well as drop?

If you look at Traj Sim (...launch it using a 5-straight instead ) and Zuvio (...launch it using a 1-straight instead ), they both contain replacement text not used by Deathfire.

Finally... If you’re actually using Deathfire, and he is destroyed, and for some reason decide to not just take the bonus attack...

7 hours ago, player2072913 said:

As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, FFG have ruled on it.

They answered the question that was asked not the question that the OP of this thread asked. The two are slightly different.

42 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

They answered the question that was asked not the question that the OP of this thread asked. The two are slightly different.

The OP's question can currently only be answered with 'VOID' as there is no answer to what template Deathfire would use, as there is no device that he by himself can currently launch.

So, if Deathfire cannot launch, as his pilot card allows, a phantom device that can't be launched, what can he launch now, in order to be worth the points?

If your answer is nothing, then you obviously don't understand the Exceptions clause in the Rules Reference.

Deathfire allows a Launch of a device, under specific circumstances. The basic rules for launch also give us the location of the required template.

The important ruling is the fact it's listed as DEVICE, which allows anything from the Device upgrade bar.

If your imaginative launchable by anybody devices ever appear, then, fantastic. K-Wings will become relevant again. As will Daethfire. Until then, Deathfire has the rules and ability to launch a device, there is more than enough manners to launch devices, and especially one that has no access to Trajectory Simulator.

Your argument, therefore, is void.

Regarding the Forum Post, the only thing that could possibly refer to would be the two Mines available, as you can't TrajSim a Mine now, can you?

It's like the foolish arguments over console fire denying a firing opportunity, or people trying to make cases that Rigged Cargo Chute was a device.