We have taken our time with the Topaz Tournament but Friday we will be hitting the Iaijutsu contest. I have read rules repeatedly, as well as the Iai thread and my brain boggles when I try to explain it. So I thought I'd try to distill the process for the players and give them a quick reference sheet to use at the table. It won't cover all the nuances but should handle the basic flow and function. Please let me know if anything jumps out at you as wrong or that could be misleading.

Goal: Score a Critical Hit. In fiction, this is simply to the First Strike.

Rules: Katana only. One-handed. Each contestant gets a single strike, any more are disqualifying and is also a dishonorable action.

STAGE 1 - INITIATIVE

Choose beginning Stance.

Initiative Check using Meditation Skill @ TN 1

At this point, either contestant may concede.

STAGE 2 - STAREDOWN and TAKING TURNS

Note: Noted Strife gains dependent on the Round are additive, not a cumulative total, so at Round 3, the character has gained 6 Strife from the STAREDOWN phase.

Round 1 - Gain 1 Strife. Secretly bid Strife. Reveal and add your Strife to your Initiative.

• On your Initiative, select your stance and take an action.
  • Calming Breath
  • Center ( Void Stance Only )
  • Predict
  • Prepare ( This typically represents drawing your weapon and is not recommended unless neither of you are accomplished duelists - you are SLOOOOOWWWW )
  • Strike ( if you succeed, you may spend ** to inflict a Critical Strike equal to your weapon's Deadliness - note this is ONLY for the Strike action, not any technique that allows you to draw and strike in a duel )
  • Use an appropriate Technique
• Note, you may not draw and strike in the same round unless you utilize a mechanical effect that explicitly allows it ( this includes Water Stance as explicit permission per page 251 ).
• If a contestant becomes Compromised, their opponent may immediately execute a Finishing Blow. This can be done out of turn. This may not be done if your weapon is not readied without explicit permission. See above Note.
  • Page 259 for details.
  • Select an Attack action ( Strike or a Technique, typically ) and make a roll.
    • Success means no damage. Instead apply a Critical Hit with 2x the Deadliness of your weapon or attack, plus bonuses and other effects.

Round 2 - Reset Initiative to Stage 1 total. Gain 2 Strife. Secretly bid Strife. Reveal and add your Strife to your Initiative.

• See Above.

Round 3 - Reset Initiative to Stage 1 total. Gain 3 Strife. Secretly bid Strife. Reveal and add your Strife to your Initiative.

• See Above.

Round 4 - Reset Initiative to Stage 1 total. Gain 4 Strife. Secretly bid Strife. Reveal and add your Strife to your Initiative.

• See Above.

Increment as necessary.

Either contestant may concede at any point after Strife bid is revealed, provided they are not Compromised.

Thanks for your time to do this. ?

Looks right, @Wyrmdog

Only quibble would be adding a reminder on Finishing Blow that you have to have drawn the weapon already or be using a technique (or weapon) that allows draw-and-strike as a single action. Even water stance doesn't allow drawing it on a finishing blow.

I suppose using the "minor preparatory action" opportunity spend might include drawing...

Also, note that duels start and end at range 2 (page 260), but involve going past each other during any attack action.

Entire rounds of calming breaths can be added waiting for a distant foe to arrive to act upon his challenge...

@AK_Aramis I am just using the Stance nod to performing an additional non-rolled action in a round to being able to quickdraw a blade.

I can see how that might not be RAW but I like it. Helps other people be more than simply fodder for the Kakita and Mirumoto. It also has the downside of forcing them into Water when they want to strike, so that pushed them to make decisions and risk being locked out of the stance.

Does that seem reasonable for a formal Iaijutsu duel to first strike/blood? Or should I force at least one opportunity spend for that, making Water stance just the required stance to do so without an appropriate Technique?

And @Nheko , you are most welcome! I am using this as-is tonight, but I think I'll probably keep evolving it as I learn things.

I'd say RAW doesn't allow it for the finishing blow, period. It's not "take your turn" - it's "Take one action". Drawing and striking without an enabling talent or school ability is two actions. Taking the finishing blow also doesn't preclude taking your turn normally, either. Finishing Blow is a bonus out-of-turn action.

Allowing it with the Earth spend is pretty much not "minor."

Only those trained in iaijutsu should be able to quickdraw for a finishing blow. Anyone else should NOT be waiting for finishing blow time, but for when they think they can get 2S & 2O, then go into water stance and hope they don't stress out.

About this...

As I was reading, I did'nt quite get it.

-What would stop anyone getting Water stance (weapon ready), bid strife and attack, spend a Void point for Rolling more dices and inflicting crit with 2 opp ?

-What happens when attacker "misses" ? I fashion iaijutsu duels as "single strike" duels ...

2 hours ago, eScoub said:

About this...

As I was reading, I did'nt quite get it.

-What would stop anyone getting Water stance (weapon ready), bid strife and attack, spend a Void point for Rolling more dices and inflicting crit with 2 opp ?

Starting in Earth Stance or, if you go first, Predicting Water Stance.

2 hours ago, eScoub said:

-What happens when attacker "misses" ? I fashion iaijutsu duels as "single strike" duels ...

Dishonor. Dishonor on your family. Dishonor on your cow.

2 hours ago, eScoub said:

-What happens when attacker "misses" ? I fashion iaijutsu duels as "single strike" duels ...

If if you fail to score an objective, you don't score points. If nobody scores points, it's a draw. You can reset and try again, or decide the issue resolved in it's unresolved-ness.

2 hours ago, eScoub said:

About this...

As I was reading, I did'nt quite get it.

-What would stop anyone getting Water stance (weapon ready), bid strife and attack, spend a Void point for Rolling more dices and inflicting crit with 2 opp ?

-What happens when attacker "misses" ? I fashion iaijutsu duels as "single strike" duels ...

if you didn't roll initiative with earth (or at least fire) stance, you better win that initiative... or you probably just lost to anybody with an half decent water ring.

when an attacker misses, nothing happens. in theory, you could "attack" and intentionally miss and keep as many opportunities as possible for some kind of effect (in example, fire opportunities to intimidate the opponent with 2 strife + 2 more strife if he attacks you during his turn).

edit: thinking that after one strike the duel is over does not make sense AT ALL. especially since iaijutsu techniques cannot do critical strikes... otherwise it simply become a countdown to who become compromise first and since there are no rules to really manage that gameplay, it gets super stupid.

4 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

otherwise it simply become a countdown to who become compromise first and since there are no rules to really manage that gameplay, it gets super stupid.

I'm not sure I get what you mean here? You're always counting down to who is Compromised first in a duel, you take Strife every round.

3 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

I'm not sure I get what you mean here? You're always counting down to who is Compromised first in a duel, you take Strife every round.

i meant that if you only allow "1 strike", then iaijutsu technique cannot crit. so the only way to win with one strike using an iaijutsu technique is to have the opponent compromise.

now, if both duelist have the same purpose in mind, then they both never bid during staredown to save their composure. avoiding a mechanic, i count that as stupid.

and there are no mechanics to put strife on an opponent to make him compromised faster (unless you use fire stance and taunt him i guess), again that is a bit stupid.

so, in a "1 strike" iaijutsu duel, that needs to make the opponent compromised to win with a crit in one strike, you can only just wait during staredown and the guy with better composure wins...

thats pretty stupid. no ?

14 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

i meant that if you only allow "1 strike", then iaijutsu technique cannot crit. so the only way to win with one strike using an iaijutsu technique is to have the opponent compromise.

now, if both duelist have the same purpose in mind, then they both never bid during staredown to save their composure. avoiding a mechanic, i count that as stupid.

and there are no mechanics to put strife on an opponent to make him compromised faster (unless you use fire stance and taunt him i guess), again that is a bit stupid.

Because winning initiative sucks? That's why they don't bid?

And isn't Predict literally a "mechanic[] to put strife on an opponent to make him compromised faster"? I mean, I don't have my rulebok with me at work, but that was what I recall it doing in the Beta.

13 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Because winning initiative sucks? That's why they don't bid?

And isn't Predict literally a "mechanic[] to put strife on an opponent to make him compromised faster"? I mean, I don't have my rulebok with me at work, but that was what I recall it doing in the Beta.

in that particular example of "having to get the opponent compromised" because it would be the only way to win in a "1 strike iaijutsu duel to first strike/blood".

indeed, initiative becomes totally useless. which, i think is stupid (sorry for the repeated use of that word)

secondly, predict cannot predict void. so if you are ok with void to do your iai tech, then stay in void and use center instead of predict. you gained the upper hand.

predict is an AWFUL mechanic as currently written.

again, i'm not saying "1 strike iaijutsu duel that requires a critical strike" should be a thing. i was simply answering to the question in the thread. and saying; no, the rule system as is do NOT support that type of duels.

edit: again, shameless plug, but; go see my houserule. they enable that type of duel without breaking any other type of duels and make dueling more fun too. they are simple rules to use, no harder than how the current game works, do not add checks or other extra layer of rules, they are not time consuming, and i give them for free

On 11/20/2018 at 2:12 PM, Avatar111 said:

edit: thinking that after one strike the duel is over does not make sense AT ALL. especially since iaijutsu techniques cannot do critical strikes... otherwise it simply become a countdown to who become compromise first and since there are no rules to really manage that gameplay, it gets super stupid.

It doesn't make sense as a melee combat, but duels are not simply melee combats with a few extra rules; they are intended to be tests of honor. If you strike, and you miss, do you do the honorable thing and stand there and let your opponent take their strike? Or are you a dishonorable coward who then goes into skirmish mode? That's part of the test. Of course it doesn't make sense to stand there if your goal is to live at whatever the cost. But that isn't supposed to be the goal of dueling; the goal is to show your honor. To defend whatever point of honor was challenged. And you don't defend yourself as truthful, courageous, honorable etc. by breaking the rules just to save your life. If the duel was started because someone called your wife an indecent woman, and you break the rules of the duel to keep yourself alive, well, that's exactly what lowlife would do, your family is now known as lowlife, and indecent status has been confirmed. You didn't win, you lost. Even if you walked away alive and you killed the other guy. You'll have a reputation now...not as a tactically superior duelist who knows exactly how to stance dance to maximal benefit to win, but as a lowlife murderer.

In RL pistol dueling, sometimes people would even fire first and miss intentionally . Why? Because they figured that as long as their opponent wasn't a bloodlust-driven maniac, that opponent would probably not use the opportunity to murder them. It might make said opponent look bad. To some, missing intentionally showed a form of 'superior honor', saying to onlookers "yes I was honorable enough to accept your challenge and risk my life, but no I'm not going to demean myself by trying to kill you over this point." It was even common enough that there's a specific word for it. "Deloping." If deloping were a duel action in the game, you'd call it stupid and house rule it differently because you'd see no combat point in it. And you'd be right that there's no combat point in it. Because winning combat isn't the only point of dueling . Defending your honor by intentionally restricting yourself to a few, agreed-upon actions, such that this increases the risk of you dying, is also part of it. You're telling the world "I'd rather die than break these (arbitrary and somewhat irrational) social rules...so you can trust that when I say my wife isn't an indecent woman, I must be telling the truth."

Now, Rokugan isn't 1800s Europe, katanas aren't flintlock pistols, and any table is welcome to decide how much emphasis to put on the 'honor test' vs. 'combat test' aspects the duels in their game world have. But I think a lot of the issues you have with dueling mechanics comes down to seeing it as an alternate form of 1-on-1 combat. Seeing it that way, many of the rules don't make sense to you; they seem inefficient and inferior to just taking regular skirmish-type actions. You're right; they are. But that's because it's not really intended to merely be an alternate form of 1-on-1 skirmish. It's an opportunity for the participants to show their 'mettle', their honor, by intentionally risking death or maiming. Minimizing that risk is to minimize your show of honor.

I think your description of it as "a countdown to compromise" is pretty much on the money; that's how the designers expected and intended duels to go. One strike in response to compromise is the scenario the dueling mechanics are designed to reflect. Participants using early rounds to inflict strife on their opponents with predict or reduce their own with calming breath so that their opponent compromises first, starts their final blow, and gets interrupted by the 'cooler headed' duelist with their own final blow. Does it work well? Meh. YMMV. But I don't think making it more like a skirmish is necessarily the best solution for everyone.

7 minutes ago, easl said:

I think your description of it as "a countdown to compromise" is pretty much on the money; that's how the designers expected and intended duels to go. One strike in response to compromise is the scenario the dueling mechanics are designed to reflect. Participants using early rounds to inflict strife on their opponents with predict or reduce their own with calming breath so that their opponent compromises first, starts their final blow, and gets interrupted by the 'cooler headed' duelist with their own final blow. Does it work well? Meh. YMMV. But I don't think making it more like a skirmish is necessarily the best solution for everyone.

"Participants using early rounds to inflict strife on their opponents with predict" That doesn't work. It is predictable (how ironic) and easy to avoid just by picking void stance.

and then, if the duel is meant to be a waiting game until someone compromise... why use an iaijutsu strike ? just ready your weapon at some point during the early rounds... it increases your deadliness (2 hand) and be ready to strike when that finishing blow opportunity happens. makes iaijutsu strike totally meaningless in duels UNLESS you put a strict rule that both character cannot draw their weapon unless they have an iaijutsu tech... yeah with that rule, you force the duel to go to compromise because there is no way to crit otherwise.

so your thinking doesn't work with the rules as written.

with my houserules, it works! one strike duel works!

please, read them, understand them, and feel it. (changes to predict/center/iaijutsu cuts) talk to me after if you feel it doesn't work. i'm happy to hear comments.

but at this point, dunno why i'm still trying to say that i fixed dueling because i feel most people are like "nah, rules are fine as written", when they clearly are not imo... for all the million of reasons I always mention.

9 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

just ready your weapon at some point during the early rounds... it increases your deadliness (2 hand) and be ready to strike when that finishing blow opportunity happens.

Because pulling your sword out and standing there with it in front of you in both hands so that you can be maximally prepared for when your opponent draws and strikes is not iaijutsu dueling. Makes combat sense? Yes. Makes cultural sense? No. Drawing and striking in one fluid motion however, *is* (AIUI) traditionally how it's done.

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makes iaijutsu strike totally meaningless in duels UNLESS you put a strict rule that both character cannot draw their weapon unless they have an iaijutsu tech... yeah with that rule, you force the duel to go to compromise because there is no way to crit otherwise.

so your thinking doesn't work with the rules as written.

I'm not proposing any strict rule. Iaijutsu tech allows a participant to conform to the cultural standards of an iai duel without having to wait until an opponent compromises.

Without an ability to use opportunities to crit, Iai techs are limited to causing 4 fatigue damage (5 for some schools). This will give +4-5 'duel points' but not fulfill the first hit/first blood requirements. It would only incapacitate the weakest opponents (Earth, Fire both 1 or someone who comes into the duel with fatigue).

So not great, I agree. Not nothing, but probably needs fixing.

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but at this point, dunno why i'm still trying to say that i fixed dueling because i feel most people are like "nah, rules are fine as written", when they clearly are not imo... for all the million of reasons I always mention.

Yeah you do seem to write a lot about your house rules for dueling, across multiple threads. But then again, I've been drawn into responding to you several times so I guess I have no right to complain.

Look, I'm not opposed to your house rules. If they work for you, great. Use them. <shrug> Agree to disagree?

2 hours ago, easl said:

Because pulling your sword out and standing there with it in front of you in both hands so that you can be maximally prepared for when your opponent draws and strikes is not iaijutsu dueling. Makes combat sense? Yes. Makes cultural sense? No. Drawing and striking in one fluid motion however, *is* (AIUI) traditionally how it's done.

I'm not proposing any strict rule. Iaijutsu tech allows a participant to conform to the cultural standards of an iai duel without having to wait until an opponent compromises.

Without an ability to use opportunities to crit, Iai techs are limited to causing 4 fatigue damage (5 for some schools). This will give +4-5 'duel points' but not fulfill the first hit/first blood requirements. It would only incapacitate the weakest opponents (Earth, Fire both 1 or someone who comes into the duel with fatigue).

So not great, I agree. Not nothing, but probably needs fixing.

Yeah you do seem to write a lot about your house rules for dueling, across multiple threads. But then again, I've been drawn into responding to you several times so I guess I have no right to complain.

Look, I'm not opposed to your house rules. If they work for you, great. Use them. <shrug> Agree to disagree?

My house rule works for the game!

Not just for me 😛

House rules belong in the house-rules section, not in the main...