A guy on the Legion discord got his hands on a IRG expansion early and spoiled the unrevealed cards for us.

Frag grenades will be nice for rebel troopers. I wish it was surge to hit. No need for more crit sources in this game.

Recon intel ok for Luke or wookies I guess.

Frag grenades, for those who hate dice variance

Recon Intel seems pretty fantastic. A tax I'd be happy to spend on a great number of things. Probably the first card that's problematic in that its not as widely available as it needs to be.

Frag Grenades are really interesting. A little niche, but it feels like there's some units that will really like it. RNG 1 Z6 springs to mind.

Tenacity isn't bad. Not auto include but not bad.

The extra Guard guy is an extra guard with a nice bonus.

Frag grenades are almost a "must take" for rebels.

According to the Legion Calculator look at the swing in the odds when you put frag grenades on a Z6 squad!

edit: Updated to be the correct math for this unit since I mistakenly believed you got the surge to crit from range.

1 minute ago, OccasionallyCorrect said:

Frag grenades are almost a "must take" for rebels.

According to the Legion Calculator look at the swing in the odds when you put frag grenades on a Z6 squad!

In range 1 though, which is the hard part

Frag Grenades also look pretty good on Flamethrower Snowtroopers, or any other unit that wants to get in close.

12 minutes ago, clontroper5 said:

In range 1 though, which is the hard part

Ahhh, you got me. I misread it. I had assumed you got the surge to crit if you had the upgrade attached.

That entire chart is off.

edit: Fixed the chart so the unit is using the correct die types and total.

10 minutes ago, clontroper5 said:

In range 1 though, which is the hard part

Very true, but for 5 points it's gonna work fine for 2-3 frontline objective grabbers

11 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Frag Grenades also look pretty good on Flamethrower Snowtroopers, or any other unit that wants to get in close.

The bump from Black to Red dice is interesting. I'd be curious to run the numbers against Armor compared to Impact Grenades.

Btw, is there any word what the other Training card in the box is? I assume its an existing one?

9 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Btw, is there any word what the other Training card in the box is? I assume its an existing one?

It's Hunter I believe

I made an average damage per attacking mini, comparing Frag and Concussion.

EDIT: FRAG 1 mini should be 0,25. For the rest in FRAG it's difficult to calculate the effect on crits against cover, so take this chart as a guide on averages rather than exact statistic.

Remember that you can always roll all blanks or all crits...

That math doesn't look right, how do 6 hits net 4.75 versus heavy cover.

The added chance of surges ignoring cover don't account for that much.

Can you show your maths please

It's a shame that you can't put Recon Intel on the FD 1.4...

Royal guard with immune Pierce is gonna be a huge counter to Luke

14 hours ago, LunarSol said:

The bump from Black to Red dice is interesting. I'd be curious to run the numbers against Armor compared to Impact Grenades.

Back of the envelope math for Armor, impact are much better, which is good since that is their dedicated target. At just a one to one comparison, which should be decent given each Impact grenade adds another instance of "Impact": a Frag grenade has a 1/4 chance of resulting in a critical, while an Impact grenade has a 1/2 or 5/8 (depending on if the equipped unit has a surge conversion) after Impact conversion.

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Back of the envelope math for Armor, impact are much better, which is good since that is their dedicated target. At just a one to one comparison, which should be decent given each Impact grenade adds another instance of "Impact": a Frag grenade has a 1/4 chance of resulting in a critical, while an Impact grenade has a 1/2 or 5/8 (depending on if the equipped unit has a surge conversion) after Impact conversion.

Right, makes sense. Seems like a decent trade off. For Snowtroopers it feels like there's an argument for either.

1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

Right, makes sense. Seems like a decent trade off. For Snowtroopers it feels like there's an argument for either.

Probably, I'd be interested in play experiences.

My experience from Bolt Action though is typically more points effective to focus units on a specific task rather than attempt to make every unit able to handle every threat.

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Probably, I'd be interested in play experiences.

My experience from Bolt Action though is typically more points effective to focus units on a specific task rather than attempt to make every unit able to handle every threat.

I've had good luck with the 73 point Flamethrower + Impact Grenades combo. Switching to Frags ups their infantry clearing power a little due to the improved accuracy on the Reds, but with Spray on the Flamethrower it seems like the existing Black dice might be overkill as is. It's effectively an additional hit, I think against a full 6 man unit you're going from 6.25 hits to 7.25 hits..... probably significant enough to consider making the switch when you account for armor saves.

36 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I've had good luck with the 73 point Flamethrower + Impact Grenades combo. Switching to Frags ups their infantry clearing power a little due to the improved accuracy on the Reds, but with Spray on the Flamethrower it seems like the existing Black dice might be overkill as is. It's effectively an additional hit, I think against a full 6 man unit you're going from 6.25 hits to 7.25 hits..... probably significant enough to consider making the switch when you account for armor saves.

I'll have to try that when I get around to fielding Empire, sounds promising.

The only thing that really changes going from reds to black in those pools is the additional dice added, so we can just compart 4 Black with surge hit to 4 Red with surge crit to compare the difference in output since both pools have a Flamethrower. Both pools also have Blast, so Cover doesn't matter, and for quick math I'm just going to treat hits as roughly equivalent to crits, especially since Dodges will find SOMETHING to cancel.

Black dice have a 5/8 chance of hitting, so with 4 dice that should be 2.5 (4*5/8)

Red Dice have a 7/8 chance of hitting, so on 4 dice 3.5 (4*7/8)

It's also significant enough to consider on any larger units that are added to the game (such as if FFG decides to make large units of B1s), or over the course of a few rounds of fire, especially since the points cost is equivalent. If Frag Grenades were more expensive, then the question would become "Is an on average extra hit per attack worth X more points than Impact Grenades," as opposed to "Is an on average single extra hit per attack worth loosing Impact [Number of Models in Squad])."

Right. It's an extra hit going to red. The remaining 3.75 hits were from the spray on the Flamethrower assuming I was going against a 6 man unit. Trying to see if the extra hit mattered against the largest units currently available. I think it probably does, particularly when you consider how important it is to get the second to last guy out of the unit.

Tabletop Admiral updated