1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I've been upfront that I think the gunner will be priced "fairly," somewhere around 8-10 points,

Must have been when the conversion kit was spoiled. Still, if they price the Gunner at 8-10 I can see the TIE/sf possibly being 36pts, though that looks a bit high for a chassis locked upgrade (like it was in the previous edition). I'm estimating the 2-6 point range for the SF Gunner if they even put a cost on it. And no, I'm not saying Gunner + ship should be 48 pts, far from it. 44-46 is the highest I think the TIE/sf + Gunner could be priced, but it should in my opinion be closer to 41-43 with gunner. I just seem to see the bare chassis being worth a bit more than you do. Maybe since I'm looking at it like a multi-arc medium fighter that can shoot ordinance in multiple directions. Not at once mind, but still it can fire at a target in front with missiles one turn, and then fire at one behind it the next turn with more.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Must have been when the conversion kit was spoiled. Still, if they price the Gunner at 8-10 I can see the TIE/sf possibly being 36pts, though that looks a bit high for a chassis locked upgrade (like it was in the previous edition). I'm estimating the 2-6 point range for the SF Gunner if they even put a cost on it. And no, I'm not saying Gunner + ship should be 48 pts, far from it. 44-46 is the highest I think the TIE/sf + Gunner could be priced, but it should in my opinion be closer to 41-43 with gunner. I just seem to see the bare chassis being worth a bit more than you do. Maybe since I'm looking at it like a multi-arc medium fighter that can shoot ordinance in multiple directions. Not at once mind, but still it can fire at a target in front with missiles one turn, and then fire at one behind it the next turn with more.

The thing about a Gunner SF and pricing. Start with a Grey Init 2 Y-Wing, add Dorsal, add Veteran Turret Gunner, add Expert Handling, and you'd wind up at 46 points. Seems kinda similar. Not the same, but still.

If the gunner is only 2 points, then the ship without the gunner is utterly useless and radically over-priced.

The reason I think the gunner will be 8 points, despite being chassis-locked, is that it essentially allows the TIE SF to be two ships in one. Without the gunner, it's kind of a TIE Aggressor/TIE Bomber/A-Wing, a somewhat cheap-ish 2-red missile ship. With the gunner, it's an X-Wing or Kihraxz equivalent.

Meanwhile, it'd allow alternate gunners to be placed onto an SF without making the ship radically overcosted. There's nothing really good for them yet (Hotshot Gunner could be interesting to support a swarm), but it allows options. A cheap gunner leads to the 1e problem with post-Chardaan Refit A-Wings: in order to equip a missile, they had to pay an extra 2 points for it, since they couldn't take Chardaan.

Consider: a 35 point non-gunner generic could run 5x with Cluster Missiles. That'd be interesting, where you might have an advantage over other missile-based ships with the rear arc tricks. That's probably a little too cheap. With only 2-dice primary weapons, they'd be a lot like the TIE Advanced x1. Potent when they're able to take locks, but can't always do that at low initiative.

But skip missiles, add the gunner, and you'll have a ship which is more like something between an X-Wing and an ARC. The Tech slot could be fun alternative to the droids/crew of those. And so the First Order essentially gets two different playstyles from one chassis, which would be a really good thing given the fact that there are only four different ships in the First Order.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The thing about a Gunner SF and pricing. Start with a Grey Init 2 Y-Wing, add Dorsal, add Veteran Turret Gunner, add Expert Handling, and you'd wind up at 46 points. Seems kinda similar. Not the same, but still.

If the gunner is only 2 points, then the ship without the gunner is utterly useless and radically over-priced.

The reason I think the gunner will be 8 points, despite being chassis-locked, is that it essentially allows the TIE SF to be two ships in one. Without the gunner, it's kind of a TIE Aggressor/TIE Bomber/A-Wing, a somewhat cheap-ish 2-red missile ship. With the gunner, it's an X-Wing or Kihraxz equivalent.

Meanwhile, it'd allow alternate gunners to be placed onto an SF without making the ship radically overcosted. There's nothing really good for them yet (Hotshot Gunner could be interesting to support a swarm), but it allows options. A cheap gunner leads to the 1e problem with post-Chardaan Refit A-Wings: in order to equip a missile, they had to pay an extra 2 points for it, since they couldn't take Chardaan.

Consider: a 35 point non-gunner generic could run 5x with Cluster Missiles. That'd be interesting, where you might have an advantage over other missile-based ships with the rear arc tricks. That's probably a little too cheap. With only 2-dice primary weapons, they'd be a lot like the TIE Advanced x1. Potent when they're able to take locks, but can't always do that at low initiative.

But skip missiles, add the gunner, and you'll have a ship which is more like something between an X-Wing and an ARC. The Tech slot could be fun alternative to the droids/crew of those. And so the First Order essentially gets two different playstyles from one chassis, which would be a really good thing given the fact that there are only four different ships in the First Order.

Then that brings in the issue of trying to arc dodge 5 with Homing missiles (38 or 39 points depending on a 35pt or 36pt base price point). For a Defender it is survivable, though the possible 5 damage in one round (if it doesn't decide for the attacker to risk rng) isn't minor. For an Interceptor, Starviper, A-Wing, Scyk, or Fang that is very easily lethal. While the Generic Scyks and A-Wings don't amount to a large proportion of a list's cost, the named pilots on those as well as most of the pilots on the others tend to be lynchpins for their respective lists. Massed multiarc homing missiles leans towards being auto delete weapons against those ships.

54 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Then that brings in the issue of trying to arc dodge 5 with Homing missiles (38 or 39 points depending on a 35pt or 36pt base price point). For a Defender it is survivable, though the possible 5 damage in one round (if it doesn't decide for the attacker to risk rng) isn't minor. For an Interceptor, Starviper, A-Wing, Scyk, or Fang that is very easily lethal. While the Generic Scyks and A-Wings don't amount to a large proportion of a list's cost, the named pilots on those as well as most of the pilots on the others tend to be lynchpins for their respective lists. Massed multiarc homing missiles leans towards being auto delete weapons against those ships.

I mean, there's lots of other equivalent ships already. Five Rho Starwings can already take Homing Missiles, have better Init and hit points, and SLAMs and OS-1 might be pretty handy in a squad like that. Scyks can already bring 6 Homing Missile ships, or 5 with Shield Upgrades. Statistically, */3/3/2 is going to be a bit harder to kill than */2/3/3. Or 6 Phoenix A-Wings, or 5 Green with Talents, or 5 TIE v1 with FCS. Or 5 Scimitar bombers with Shield Upgrade and Seismic Charges. There'd be advantages and disadvantages to each variant, but it's a rough archetype which already exists. It's not like 5 SFs is a radical departure from that.

The point stands, however, that 5 missile SFs would be really different from 4 gunner SFs.

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It's not like 5 SFs is a radical departure from that.

The ability to flip the missile arc and the linked rotates tied to it says otherwise. All of your example missile carriers end up stressed if they have to do a follow up shot. The TIE/sf doesn't. I'm still leaning 38pts min.

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

The ability to flip the missile arc and the linked rotates tied to it says otherwise. All of your example missile carriers end up stressed if they have to do a follow up shot. The TIE/sf doesn't. I'm still leaning 38pts min.

But a Special Forces TIE can't SLAM and or reload like a Gunboat. Or can't link into a boost for a disengage like an A-Wing (it doesn't have ANY boosts period). Or have focus-linked Boosts and Barrel Rolls like a V1 on blue 1 turns.

Any of these "spam Homing Missile" ships presents a somewhat different or unique threat, with their own tricks.