avec said:
Avi_dreader said:
I wish FFG would just come out with some errata for bank loans closing off the exploit loophole. That's all. It wouldn't be that hard.
do you have any suggestions?
Well, we've heard a number just over the length of this thread (including some of my own).
avec said:
Another possibility is that, if you default, you still owe the bank. After you've defaulted, any time you acquire money or items, they immediately go to the bank (i.e., they're discarded) until you've given the bank their $10 (including the $ value of items). Of course, Finn is immune.
That's still somewhat exploitable (since some items are expensive garbage), but it would be a *much* better fix than what's currently in place (i.e. nothing).
Avi_dreader said:
Well, we've heard a number just over the length of this thread (including some of my own).
Sorry Avi. I didn't notice the fix you posted on the previous page. That one's not bad either
avec said:
Avi_dreader said:
Well, we've heard a number just over the length of this thread (including some of my own).
Sorry Avi. I didn't notice the fix you posted on the previous page. That one's not bad either
Yeah ;') I should work for the Feds.
jgt7771 said:
"Logical", perhaps not. But it would put a damper on those mass Wallmart Runs, where everyone gathers at the Curiositie Shoppe with a "community wallet" fishing 12+ cards in one turn. Sure, you're talking about a "chance meeting" amongst helpful pals, but you're in a thread where Avi is outlining the "full power" of the Bank Loan exploit. One player's logic is another player's loophole.
I take your point, I was only highlighting that this kind of rules exist only because the game system has some weaknesses. I've never ever tried to start the game with 70 extra bucks just abusing of bank loans because there is a way I can have extra money and extra items, nor I go shopping with a community wallet.
Bank loans can be overpowered and Avi is right (of course), but at a certain point the topic moved for a while on trading. There are many other examples when it would be good trading in different phases. Example: two players for different reasons enter in the same OW and survive the first OW encounter. Next round - upkeep: the first player passes the Healing Stone to the second one. The second one uses the stone to recover 1 sanity. Why shouldn't this be possible? I can pass the other one the healing stone during movement, but not during upkeep. We're still in the same place.
I repeat (a very personal pov, of course), if a player try not to break the game exploiting some bugs it might have, some things should be done with ratio without the necessity of specific rules to fix everything in a way blocking every other possibility
Julia said:
Erm, if that was allowed, both investigators could actually use the Healing Stone during the same upkeep phase: after the first one uses it, it is traded to the second, who first refreshes it and then uses it again. Clearly, this would create problems.
Similarly, if trading is allowed during the encounter phase, if two investigators are ever in the same location, they could both use all their beneficial items like Lanterns, etc. by simply switching them around. I don't think that was ever the intent of the game designer.
I'm fully convinced it is exactly because of these kind of loopholes that trading is strictly limited to movement phase by the rules.
-Villain
Julia said:
jgt7771 said:
"Logical", perhaps not. But it would put a damper on those mass Wallmart Runs, where everyone gathers at the Curiositie Shoppe with a "community wallet" fishing 12+ cards in one turn. Sure, you're talking about a "chance meeting" amongst helpful pals, but you're in a thread where Avi is outlining the "full power" of the Bank Loan exploit. One player's logic is another player's loophole.
I take your point, I was only highlighting that this kind of rules exist only because the game system has some weaknesses. I've never ever tried to start the game with 70 extra bucks just abusing of bank loans because there is a way I can have extra money and extra items, nor I go shopping with a community wallet.
Bank loans can be overpowered and Avi is right (of course), but at a certain point the topic moved for a while on trading. There are many other examples when it would be good trading in different phases. Example: two players for different reasons enter in the same OW and survive the first OW encounter. Next round - upkeep: the first player passes the Healing Stone to the second one. The second one uses the stone to recover 1 sanity. Why shouldn't this be possible? I can pass the other one the healing stone during movement, but not during upkeep. We're still in the same place.
I repeat (a very personal pov, of course), if a player try not to break the game exploiting some bugs it might have, some things should be done with ratio without the necessity of specific rules to fix everything in a way blocking every other possibility
Oh, I'd rather FFG make a bug fix against the bank loan exploit than making it so trading can only occur during movement, I think the later would be awkward (especially considering that trading's been possible during *every* phase for four years now). I definitely like trading in non-movement phases, and I don't think it's illegitimate. The only real problem involved is, well, money laundering.
Villain said:
Julia said:
Erm, if that was allowed, both investigators could actually use the Healing Stone during the same upkeep phase: after the first one uses it, it is traded to the second, who first refreshes it and then uses it again. Clearly, this would create problems.
Similarly, if trading is allowed during the encounter phase, if two investigators are ever in the same location, they could both use all their beneficial items like Lanterns, etc. by simply switching them around. I don't think that was ever the intent of the game designer.
I'm fully convinced it is exactly because of these kind of loopholes that trading is strictly limited to movement phase by the rules.
-Villain
Villain said:
Erm, if that was allowed, both investigators could actually use the Healing Stone during the same upkeep phase: after the first one uses it, it is traded to the second, who first refreshes it and then uses it again. Clearly, this would create problems.
Never thought about that in this manner. I always played that an exhausted item passed won't refresh until next Upkeep. But clearly, you're absolutely right. Thank you for opening my eyes (two years of playing and still things unclear... things that are pretty evident and obvious, AFTER someone explains them to me)
Villain said:
Similarly, if trading is allowed during the encounter phase, if two investigators are ever in the same location, they could both use all their beneficial items like Lanterns, etc. by simply switching them around. I don't think that was ever the intent of the game designer.
I'm fully convinced it is exactly because of these kind of loopholes that trading is strictly limited to movement phase by the rules.
Ok, thx Villain, you almost made me to change my mind. Just a couple of questions. First one: an investigator is equipped with a Gruesome talisman and finishes his movement by banging in some monsters. He fights and defeats the first one and manages to escape from the others. A pal arrives, and the first one passes him the talisman: he should be able to use while fighting the other monsters. Is this correct? Isn't this similar to the "passing Lanterns" issue?
Second question: when facing The terrible experiment rumor, you fight monsters during the AE phase. So, an investigator goes to MU streets and do some hunting. Then another investigator joins the party; the first one, according to the rules, cannot pass him anything because it's AE phase, although he'd able to do it for "normal" monsters hunting during the movement phase. Isn't it a bit controversial?
Thx for help
Villain said:
Erm, if that was allowed, both investigators could actually use the Healing Stone during the same upkeep phase: after the first one uses it, it is traded to the second, who first refreshes it and then uses it again. Clearly, this would create problems.
Never thought about that in this manner. I always played that an exhausted item passed won't refresh until next Upkeep. But clearly, you're absolutely right. Thank you for opening my eyes (two years of playing and still things unclear... things that are pretty evident and obvious, AFTER someone explains them to me)
Villain said:
Similarly, if trading is allowed during the encounter phase, if two investigators are ever in the same location, they could both use all their beneficial items like Lanterns, etc. by simply switching them around. I don't think that was ever the intent of the game designer.
I'm fully convinced it is exactly because of these kind of loopholes that trading is strictly limited to movement phase by the rules.
Ok, thx Villain, you almost made me to change my mind. Just a couple of questions. First one: an investigator is equipped with a Gruesome talisman and finishes his movement by banging in some monsters. He fights and defeats the first one and manages to escape from the others. A pal arrives, and the first one passes him the talisman: he should be able to use while fighting the other monsters. Is this correct? Isn't this similar to the "passing Lanterns" issue?
Second question: when facing The terrible experiment rumor, you fight monsters during the AE phase. So, an investigator goes to MU streets and do some hunting. Then another investigator joins the party; the first one, according to the rules, cannot pass him anything because it's AE phase, although he'd able to do it for "normal" monsters hunting during the movement phase. Isn't it a bit controversial?
Thx for help
Both of your questions are non-issues (at least the way you're phrased— I suspect you might mean something else with Terrible Experiment, so I'm going to briefly mention it), because the items can be traded during movement phase (and the first answer is a clear yes, because movement and combat take place within the movement phase— even though you can't trade during combat itself, you can trade before and after, even under the strictest proposed trading rules). Terrible experiment can be a minor issue, if you don't have enough items for both investigators and you want to trade off items from one character to the other (once sanity and stamina are low).
Re: the exhaust issue— I just have a house ruling (house errata really) that an item can only be refreshed once per upkeep— unless of course there's something that specifically refreshes an item (i.e. Zebulon Whatley, who, by the way I play, could theoretically allow four uses of a spell during an upkeep if he and the spell were both refreshed).
Avi_dreader said:
Both of your questions are non-issues (at least the way you're phrased— I suspect you might mean something else with Terrible Experiment, so I'm going to briefly mention it), because the items can be traded during movement phase. Actually terrible experiment can be a minor issue, if you don't have enough items for both investigators and you want to trade off items from one character to the other (once sanity and stamina are low).
Re: the exhaust issue— I just have a house ruling (house errata really) that an item can only be refreshed once per upkeep— unless of course there's something that specifically refreshes an item (i.e. Zebulon Whatley, who, by the way I play, could theoretically allow four uses of a spell during an upkeep if he and the spell were both refreshed).
Sorry, Avi, probably bad wording, or simply bad English. I'll try again:
- first point: Villan said the rule for restricting trades to the movement phase was intended to avoid characters taking benefits of items such as the Lantern during encounters. But, as far as I understand the game, I can pass another investigator an object like the Gruesome talisman after a combat and the other investigator can use it in his own combat in the same round. So I was wondering if there is any difference between these two cases (Lantern and Talisman).
- second point: more or less same question. I can trade before fighting, but only if fighting happens in the movement phase. The terrible experiment is an example of fight during AE phase, but according to the fact trades can be made only during Phase II, I'm not allowed to trade anything with my mates while trying to pass those rumor. And I don't see why
- exhausting issue: I've always played that as an item cannot be refreshed twice in the same round. So, if you give it to another investigar used, no further use until next round. If you pass it unexhausted, then it can be used in the same round you pass it. But I never realized it was a house rule of any type
Hope wording this time is better :-)
Julia said:
Avi_dreader said:
Both of your questions are non-issues (at least the way you're phrased— I suspect you might mean something else with Terrible Experiment, so I'm going to briefly mention it), because the items can be traded during movement phase. Actually terrible experiment can be a minor issue, if you don't have enough items for both investigators and you want to trade off items from one character to the other (once sanity and stamina are low).
Re: the exhaust issue— I just have a house ruling (house errata really) that an item can only be refreshed once per upkeep— unless of course there's something that specifically refreshes an item (i.e. Zebulon Whatley, who, by the way I play, could theoretically allow four uses of a spell during an upkeep if he and the spell were both refreshed).
Sorry, Avi, probably bad wording, or simply bad English. I'll try again:
- first point: Villan said the rule for restricting trades to the movement phase was intended to avoid characters taking benefits of items such as the Lantern during encounters. But, as far as I understand the game, I can pass another investigator an object like the Gruesome talisman after a combat and the other investigator can use it in his own combat in the same round. So I was wondering if there is any difference between these two cases (Lantern and Talisman).
- second point: more or less same question. I can trade before fighting, but only if fighting happens in the movement phase. The terrible experiment is an example of fight during AE phase, but according to the fact trades can be made only during Phase II, I'm not allowed to trade anything with my mates while trying to pass those rumor. And I don't see why
- exhausting issue: I've always played that as an item cannot be refreshed twice in the same round. So, if you give it to another investigar used, no further use until next round. If you pass it unexhausted, then it can be used in the same round you pass it. But I never realized it was a house rule of any type
Hope wording this time is better :-)
Heh... re: Talisman v. Lantern, fundamentally there's no difference (besides, I don't have any problem with passing off lanterns— because how often are investigators at the same location anyways?)
It might not be a house rule, but based on what was said earlier in the thread, I suspect it is (I'd need to check the manual again about when exactly items refresh— each investigator's upkeep phase, or the upkeep phase in general).
You needn't apologize to me or anyone else on this forum ;') especially Dam.
Julia said:
Mechanically, you are on the same board space, yes. Thats not the same as standing next to one another in real space though, especially in the OWs. Those places are vast, and some are generic - not actually specific places at all, but catch all categories for a probably infinite number of different places - like "Another Dimension" and "Another Time". So it makes sense that you have to move towards one another to make a trade.
Even when two investigators are in the same street area or location it doesnt mean they can see each other. How many rooms do you think there are in the asylum of Arkham - are there ANY residents left in town by now?? Also, as some encounters show, investigators are not always IN the locations - sometimes they are snooping around the outside, or are attacked as they climb the front steps...
My favourite bank loan scam nerf is: "any player who defaults on a bank loan is additionally arrested and taken to the nearest jailhouse, delayed. If a player has no items to give up, they are retired ."
Very true, though it's harder to make the case that two investigators can be in the Curiositie Shop at the same time and not be able to trade. Granted, the so-called "Curiositie Shop" is actually a vast armory in disguise, but still.
http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Trade_items
investigators can trade at "ANY" phase.
http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Trade_items
investigators can trade at "ANY" phase.
That entry is old and was overridden by the latest FAQ. From pag. 4
Q: Exactly where, when, and what can investigators trade?
A: Investigators may trade any time during the Movement Phase when they are in the same location, street area, or Other World area except during combat. They may trade before, during or after movement, which means trading does not end a move. Investigators who are delayed or who have lost their turn may still trade with other investigators in the same location, street area, or Other World area during the Movement Phase. They may also trade at any point during the Investigators Refresh step of battling the Ancient One.
The wiki should be updated.
I've always played it as movement phase only.
The easy fix is to limit the number of bank loan cards used in the game, this allows you to tailor the strength of the exploit without having to remember house rules.