Does this tactic work?

At the beginning of the game, all of the players but one race to the bank and take out loans. The one character who does not take out a loan instead heads immediately for the magic shop to farm for Elder Signs. After getting their loans, the other players then race over to the magic shop and dump all of their cash from the bank loans on the "shopping" player. They also dump all of their equipment on him, too, leavnig them with no items, and with no money.

Now the four players all start farming for Elder Signs. When any of them finds one, the player with the money gives that player the cash to buy it.

During the following upkeep phases, the players with loans will default because they have no money, but they will suffer no penalty because they also have no items.

Does that seem kind of broken to anyone? Or am I missing some rule that prevents this?

edit: nevermind.....

The basic Bank Loan exploit (take loan, give things, default, no penalty!) is indeed broken and I avoid it every game. One suggested house rule is that you cannot trade anything as long as you have a loan.

However, I'm pretty sure that trades between investigators may only be made during the Movement phase (except during combat). This would affect the speed at which you could farm the UI deck, but the principle of a quadruple-default would still be viable.

Yes, items (and money) can only be traded during the movement phase (or Upkeep during the AO Battle). But nothing prevents someone from taking out a loan and trading everything to another player. Which tends to take out the threat of the loan (and some of the challenge of the game).

Tibs said:

It seems to me the FAQ entry implies you can trade anytime that is not during combat (such as during encounters):

Q: Exactly where, when, and what can investigators trade?
A: Investigators may trade any time they are in the same location except during combat. They may trade before, during or after movement, which means trading does not end a move.

This entry was in ghost-FAQ version 1:

Q: When *exactly* can trading occur?
A: Movement phase only.

This line is suspiciously absent from the recent revision. But thanks to Brian's tedious re-organizing, he likely condensed all the trading questions into one answer, and the term "movement phase" only appears as "before, during, or after movement," which is a bit vague.

I too would regard the "dumping money on another player then going broke" as a broken tactic. I would allow it only if then implementing a "collector comes calling" added effect - roll a d6 every Mythos phase and on a 1, anyone who has defaulted on a bank loan at any previous time loses all of their money and possessions (even if over $10, interest you know). The only way this stops is if the losses ever total $10 in cash, with items seized worth 1/2 their cost. The bank doesn't recognize the value of spells, they just regard them as rubbish and burn the parchments etc. Oh, and the bank immediately garnishes all retainers - taking half (round up) the income.

Banks are, after all, truly evil unlike AO's, which are simply alien. You may beat the AO, you never beat the bank. Arkham has no farmer's coop/building and loan or credit union, old man Potter took care of them.

Rob

Venthrac said:

Yes it works. I call it money laundering. Seriously :')

I consider deliberately taking out bank loans to default on them bad form, but I'll do it if I get desperate. In the fan creation league, I made it so that bank loans aren't as easily exploitable.

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re: Tib's response

I'd take the proto-faq ruling about trading with a grain, or better yet, a bag, of salt, there's been contradictory wordings on this, and until there's a definitive ruling, I'm not saying anything. Plus there is no movement phase during final battle ::rolls eyes::

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Another house rule fix could be that if an investigator defaults on a loan, they take permanent penalties unless they spend five dollars to get creditors of their backs i.e. keep making the bank roll every turn (even after defaulting, and keep losing the dollar on a failed roll, or an item).

Hmm... personally, I don't see anything to serious about that. It's not like you could exploit the bank loan again. You can only have one once, after all, and the rules never specifically instruct you against it. Plus, going around getting a bank loan, then handing someone all your items, then taking it back is a wee bit troublesome anyway.

AshDiamond said:

No, it really isn't. It's an easy way to start off the game with 70 extra dollars by the second and third turn. You can use that money to look through 52 additional cards in the unique item deck, or more. Of course, if you have a large team, you'll also have starting cash. If it's exploited properly it turns almost any game with a large number of players into an easy win.

Unfortunatly the tactic works pretty well, I know since my group exploited it over and over again - we call it "The Bank Robbery".

Woodclaw said:

::Snort:: SHAAAAAAAAME!

Avi_dreader said:

You tell me, I tried to stop it, but unless team GOO is a super-fast one (like Yig), they think that losing a couple of rounds to grab an extra 10 bucks is worth the effort. Honestly I think I can see the reasoning, but I don't like it.

We've always played you can only trade during movement (and upkeep in final battle), the rules seem to strongly imply this.

The one thing that can slow the aforementioned tactic down a bit is that defaulting a Bank Loan is not automatic - you have to roll 1-3 on the upkeep for the collectors to come. If your naked and penniless investigator ends up rolling 4-6 for, say, a dozen turns in a row, you've wasted half the game just waiting to default a Bank Loan. The odds for that are quite low, I know, but I've seen it happen for five turns straight.

-Villain

An investigator not able to pay his bank loan should draw a corruption card in addition of any other effect.

Take this! you **** exploit!

Or how about if the investigator cannot pay, the team as a whole must immediately discard $10 (or $10 worth of items). Except perhaps for loans in Finn's name.

My personal 2 cents on this issue... I don't see why trading should be limited to the movement phase only. I mean, 2 investigators go shopping at the Curiosity shoppe ; one draws his items, spends money, AE Phase over. Before the 2nd one draws three UIs, the first one tosses the other a couple of dollars. There is no logical way why this should not happen. Maybe there will be some counterindications on different occasions, I don't know, but I prefer not having a fixed rule to prevent players from hacking that blocks even the most "normal" trades.

"Logical", perhaps not. But it would put a damper on those mass Wallmart Runs, where everyone gathers at the Curiositie Shoppe with a "community wallet" fishing 12+ cards in one turn. Sure, you're talking about a "chance meeting" amongst helpful pals, but you're in a thread where Avi is outlining the "full power" of the Bank Loan exploit. One player's logic is another player's loophole.

It's a similar kind of logic that led to the rule that you can't buy more than one card when you shop, and you have to buy a card when you can afford one: Elder Sign mining.

Tibs said:

Well, the flip side of this logic is that you have to buy something when you shop even if you draw only garbage. Which doesn't make much sense to me.

Woodclaw said:

Ah, but you're not using End of the World logic :')

You: Hello shopkeeper, I'm looking for some stuff to fight off the apocalypse that's coming any day now.

Shopkeeper: Um, okay [crazy], I've got these things available.

You: Oh, no thanks, I'm not so interested in those, I can wait until you get something better.

Shopkeeper: [**** crazies, I thought he said the apocalypse was any day now].

I wish FFG would just come out with some errata for bank loans closing off the exploit loophole. That's all. It wouldn't be that hard. Of course, game loopholes would still exist (Olney in Kingsport for instance), but it'd close off one of the game's major design flaws. It's easier than just telling players, "don't be unfair."

Avi_dreader said:

do you have any suggestions?

Woodclaw said:

I mentioned it. I should have said, "it's a similar abandonment of logic."

My best recommendation is that you are disallowed from trading whenever you have a Bank Loan.

Another possibility is that, if you default, you still owe the bank. After you've defaulted, any time you acquire money or items, they immediately go to the bank (i.e., they're discarded) until you've given the bank their $10 (including the $ value of items). Of course, Finn is immune.