The cost of a point of shield on the base stat line is probably more like 2-3 points worst case.
If you assume they cost the same as upgrades, then 45 points of the base cost of the E-Wing would be attributed to hull and shield alone, leaving only 16 points to account for initiative level, red/green dice, ship ability, dial manoeuvres, upgrade slots and actions on the Knave... which would make no sense at all.
1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:As to E-Wing pricing, I kind of think the best ship to compare them with is the Starviper. Some linked actions, 3 dice on both attack and defense. Both have a handy ship ability. Kind of similar upgrade bars, too. System, Torpedo, Mod, with Illicit or Droid being the difference. It's a lot easier to compare the effects of adding or deleting hit points than adjusting red or green dice (like comparing to an X-Wing).
E-Wing generics are 61/63, Starviper Generics are 46/48, so a 15 point difference. A shield upgrade is worth about 8 points in FFG's reckoning, and with the difference between hull and shield being 1 point, let's say that's another 1. So to equalize the statlines, it'd take 9 points added to a Starviper, so 55/57, so there's still a 6 point gap between a health-increased Starviper and an E-Wing. Long-range Locks are going to be better than bendy barrel rolls, I believe, but the linked lock actions are worse than linked focus on 3 green dice.
Going all the way down to a 51 point E-Wing seems kind of extreme in comparison to a Starviper, but a 55/57 point E-Wing kinda makes sense to me. That could be Proton Torpedos and R4 Astromechs at 66 on a Knave, or Elusive/R3/FCS on a Rogue, or something like that.
Is it really extreme though? Its only got 6 health and cannot token stack for defense. In practice, it should only be slightly more difficult to kill than a standard X-Wing because that third green dice is going to be blank.
Compared to the utter nonsense of Whisper and Redline's pricing, E-Wings would probably still be more fairly costed at 51 points. You would basically be choosing between Wedge or an IV 2 generic that can do slightly more than his chassis.
47 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:Is it really extreme though? Its only got 6 health and cannot token stack for defense. In practice, it should only be slightly more difficult to kill than a standard X-Wing because that third green dice is going to be blank.
Compared to the utter nonsense of Whisper and Redline's pricing, E-Wings would probably still be more fairly costed at 51 points. You would basically be choosing between Wedge or an IV 2 generic that can do slightly more than his chassis.
Whisper and Redline should be more expensive, and probably aren't the right peg to be measuring against.
However, I do think 51 vs 55 is a difference which matters, because green dice do matter. I know it often doesn't feel that way, but they do. Again, comparing an E-Wing to a Starviper, I think a 3/3/3/3 for only 5 points more than a 3/3/4/1 kinda feels wrong, given the strength of the Experimental Scanners.
At very least, I tend to think changes ought to be applied more slowly than a massive 10 point drop. I think 6 points off from their current value is probably right, 55 points. However, if January comes and only sees a 4 point drop in E-Wing costs, I'd think that's a good start. 4 points allows for a Proton Torpedo only on a Knave at 66. That'd be enough to see if three Experimental Scanners torpedoes are potent enough. We'd learn if they're a problem, or if they need more help. It'd also test the potential of R2 Astromech a Rogue. Three Crack Shot/R2 Rogues would be interesting. Regen on 3-green dice ships which, while not torp'd up, will have double-mods.
Consider: 4 X-Wings with Proton Torpedoes don't get any toys. Just torpedoes. 3 E-Wings getting just Torpedoes seems about right, at least as a first test, and what they ought to have been to begin with. The most important thing the players need to know is whether three Torps is underwhelming, broken, or on par. We can't fully figure out the right price for E-Wings until we see the torpedo effect. 57 points is the right place to start from, to see what adjustments they'd need.
Edited by theBitterFig@theBitterFig a thought experiment. Lets say the Starviper had the E-Wing's dial. Where would the generic that you're referencing end up points wise?
56 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:However, I do think 51 vs 55 is a difference which matters, because green dice do matter. I know it often doesn't feel that way, but they do. Again, comparing an E-Wing to a Starviper, I think a 3/3/3/3 for only 5 points more than a 3/3/4/1 kinda feels wrong, given the strength of the Experimental Scanners.
Yeah, but that's also discounting the Starvipers bank barrel roll which is almost double repositioning in a single action. Not to mention Starvipers get more usage out of those greens with the link to focus/calculate.
50 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:However, I do think 51 vs 55 is a difference which matters, because green dice do matter. I know it often doesn't feel that way, but they do. Again, comparing an E-Wing to a Starviper, I think a 3/3/3/3 for only 5 points more than a 3/3/4/1 kinda feels wrong, given the strength of the Experimental Scanners.
Consider the Starvipers 3/3/4/1 against the Fangs 3/3/4/0;
Starviper 46 / 48 for initiative 2 / 3
Fang 44 / 50 for initiative 1 / 4
Same action bar, Starviper has the advantage on upgrade slots, Fang has the better dial and ship ability (for the low initiative generics, certainly... debatable on the Aces)
I don't see the shield making much difference, points wise...
Given that generic E-Wings didn't see much table time in 1.0, I don't think a reduction to 51 points would be unreasonable to encourage people to try them out in 2.0.
After all, you don't have to apply the same reduction to the Aces; Corran could be left as is (although it would be a shame not to see a bit of a reduction), since it's not without precedent to see an Ace priced at 20 points or more above the lowest generic on a particular platform - take Fenn Rau on the Fang, for example.
47 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:@theBitterFig a thought experiment. Lets say the Starviper had the E-Wing's dial. Where would the generic that you're referencing end up points wise?
Honestly, probably the same.
Certainly no more than 1 point different. You'd have the same number of white hard turns, a 5-straight, and both a K-Turn and S-Loops. It feels a little odd having faster moves with that tight-turning barrel roll, but I don't think it'd be bad. The E-Viper would be a lot faster at straight-line speed with a Blue 4, and with access to white 3 hard turns.
For example, the A-Wing and TIE v1 dials (and also the difference between the TAP's linked and the A-Wing Vectored Thrusters) are pretty different in the feel of how they fly, but I think it's correct for them to be priced the same.
3 minutes ago, Octarine-08 said:Yeah, but that's also discounting the Starvipers bank barrel roll which is almost double repositioning in a single action. Not to mention Starvipers get more usage out of those greens with the link to focus/calculate.
I mean, an extra shield is worth like 8 points to a Starviper. Personally, I think the banks-rolls and linked focus are good, but so is ExpSensors. One issue is that it's not always easy to use banked rolls and linked actions to peak efficiency, while long-range Locks is super easy. Grab and go.
5 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:Consider the Starvipers 3/3/4/1 against the Fangs 3/3/4/0;
Starviper 46 / 48 for initiative 2 / 3
Fang 44 / 50 for initiative 1 / 4
Same action bar, Starviper has the advantage on upgrade slots, Fang has the better dial and ship ability (for the low initiative generics, certainly... debatable on the Aces)
I don't see the shield making much difference, points wise...
Given that generic E-Wings didn't see much table time in 1.0, I don't think a reduction to 51 points would be unreasonable to encourage people to try them out in 2.0.
After all, you don't have to apply the same reduction to the Aces; Corran could be left as is (although it would be a shame not to see a bit of a reduction), since it's not without precedent to see an Ace priced at 20 points or more above the lowest generic on a particular platform - take Fenn Rau on the Fang, for example.
Concordia Faceoff can be a really pwerful ability. I've had ships live through 4 range 1 shots from A-Wings.
I don't really have an issue bringing down the E-Wing Ace prices, but I think the generic is in some ways the bigger threat. I'd be more comfortable with a 64 point Corran (still higher than Luke) and a 55 point Knave, than a 51 point Knave and a 70 point Corran.
51 points is both Proton Torpedo and R2 Astromech. Blow someone up, then zip out and regen, while coming around for a second Torpedo pass. That does feel extreme to me. LRS Harpoons were kind of annoying to deal with when the Gunboat first emerged. Having to compromise on other tricks to get three with Torpedoes, or skip torpedoes to get multiple tricks and tools, seems like the sweet spot for list building and decision making.
If the price on E-Wing eventually has to go down to 51, so be it. But starting out with points adjustment with a massive drop like that just seems like the wrong strategy for points balance over time. We can all agree they need to go down, however.
1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:Whisper and Redline should be more expensive, and probably aren't the right peg to be measuring against.
However, I do think 51 vs 55 is a difference which matters, because green dice do matter. I know it often doesn't feel that way, but they do. Again, comparing an E-Wing to a Starviper, I think a 3/3/3/3 for only 5 points more than a 3/3/4/1 kinda feels wrong, given the strength of the Experimental Scanners.
At very least, I tend to think changes ought to be applied more slowly than a massive 10 point drop. I think 6 points off from their current value is probably right, 55 points. However, if January comes and only sees a 4 point drop in E-Wing costs, I'd think that's a good start. 4 points allows for a Proton Torpedo only on a Knave at 66. That'd be enough to see if three Experimental Scanners torpedoes are potent enough. We'd learn if they're a problem, or if they need more help. It'd also test the potential of R2 Astromech a Rogue. Three Crack Shot/R2 Rogues would be interesting. Regen on 3-green dice ships which, while not torp'd up, will have double-mods.
Consider: 4 X-Wings with Proton Torpedoes don't get any toys. Just torpedoes. 3 E-Wings getting just Torpedoes seems about right, at least as a first test, and what they ought to have been to begin with. The most important thing the players need to know is whether three Torps is underwhelming, broken, or on par. We can't fully figure out the right price for E-Wings until we see the torpedo effect. 57 points is the right place to start from, to see what adjustments they'd need.
Keep in mind that proton torps are likely to get a little points increase also.
Anyway, I think they should be somewhere between 51 and 55 pts.
16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:I don't really have an issue bringing down the E-Wing Ace prices, but I think the generic is in some ways the bigger threat. I'd be more comfortable with a 64 point Corran (still higher than Luke) and a 55 point Knave , than a 51 point Knave and a 70 point Corran.
3 x double modded Prots on the first pass for 198pts (with R4 for the boost to stress clearing)? Ouch.
6 minutes ago, Giledhil said:Keep in mind that proton torps are likely to get a little points increase also.
Anyway, I think they should be somewhere between 51 and 55 pts.
Exactly what I was going to say. If you want 3 ProTorp Knaves you'll need to make a little more room for the anticipated increase in Torpedo price.
Would 3 double modded proton torpedoes with E-wings even be that bad? I'll just leave this here for reference, and its not even optimized or abusing undercosted bombers/punishers.
Colonel Jendon (46)
Rho Squadron Pilot (37)
Trick Shot (1)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)
Rho Squadron Pilot (37)
Trick Shot (1)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)
Rho Squadron Pilot (37)
Trick Shot (1)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)
Total: 196
31 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:3 x double modded Prots on the first pass for 198pts (with R4 for the boost to stress clearing)? Ouch.
I mean, 55 seems a lot safer than 51, where they'd get R2 Astromech, or R3 and Fire Control System, or R3 and an upgrade to Rogues... Init 4 might even kill some stuff before it shoots. So long, 4-LOM, away with your stress nonsense.
39 minutes ago, Giledhil said:Keep in mind that proton torps are likely to get a little points increase also.
Anyway, I think they should be somewhere between 51 and 55 pts.
Fair enough on the Torpedo pricing.
I think what they ought to change Knaves to is (66 minus Proton Torpedo) exactly. Give us that list, let us experiment with it, get a feel over how it falls, whether it's too good or needs more, and adjust from there. Might still need to go down more, but that seems like a good testing price point, and really what they ought to have been from the start. Get that data; really answer the question "Are three Proton Torpedo Knaves actually too powerful?"
2 minutes ago, Rettere said:Would 3 double modded proton torpedoes with E-wings even be that bad? I'll just leave this here for reference, and its not even optimized or abusing undercosted bombers/punishers.
[Jendon Shuttle + Rhos]
Hard to say. That's why the price should have been set to let us see for ourselves.
Anyhow, current E-Wings.
List building concept. I've seen other folks discuss a similar concept, and thought about it some myself.
Queen over Jacks Regen, since the card suit gets called a Knave in some localities.
I kind of think I want to keep Miranda leaner (since she'll probably be easier to kill), and I think I want the Rogues. It's nice to have everyone Init 4, and I feel like the list might be lacking damage, and since Torpedoes won't fit unless Miranda only has a primary weapon, Crack Shot seems like the only way to possibly get more damage.
44 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:So long, 4-LOM, away with your stress nonsense.
This can easily happen with the I2s at 55 pts even without FCS. Have to be extra careful with obstacle placement if facing three of them.
Has anyone tried 3x Knave with FCS+R4? Leaves 2 point of wiggle and a good bit of stressless inclose maneuvers.
19 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:This can easily happen with the I2s at 55 pts even without FCS. Have to be extra careful with obstacle placement if facing three of them.
Look, I'm already arguing against folks who think 55 points too expensive. Go argue with someone who thinks E-Wings should be 51 points if you think it's too cheap.
I'll stand by a general sense that triple Torpedo E-Wings ought tested by the community at large, and see from there.
8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:Look, I'm already arguing against folks who think 55 points too expensive. Go argue with someone who thinks E-Wings should be 51 points if you think it's too cheap.
I'll stand by a general sense that triple Torpedo E-Wings ought tested by the community at large, and see from there .
Sorry for making you feel that I'm trying to argue with you. I'm not. I agree that it should be tested, but I think it is a pretty dang good simile to 3x prot Redlines for the first and second pass of a joust, just allot faster in its mobility.
Edited by Hiemfirestill attempting to make Corran work and not feels bad... I flew Corran with Lonewolf, R2, FCS last night and it was pretty decent. I made mistakes with Han (bad bad bad mistakes) and Corran still took down Redline and half of whisper before biting it himself. Don't even consider the rest of my list because I might as well have setup Han in reverse.
5 hours ago, nitrobenz said:Exactly what I was going to say. If you want 3 ProTorp Knaves you'll need to make a little more room for the anticipated increase in Torpedo price.
I really feel like they're not gonna whack torps at all. They'll just deal with the pilots that are giving issues.
Torps are part of the BASE GAME.
Torp T65s VS 8 TIEs.
That matchup HAS to work, and im betting it doesn't if torps go up.
Then again, maybe ffg can scale the cost of torps for different ships - or better - scale them for different pilots.
But I know, programmatically, that's asking for the moon right now. ?
On 11/5/2018 at 12:34 PM, Wiredin said:10 points overcosted?
terrible linked actions?
3-3-3-3 stat line is beautiful tho.
A-Wings are worse. Fragile, low initiative, weak unique pilot abilities.
5 hours ago, Pooleman said:A-Wings are worse. Fragile, low initiative, weak unique pilot abilities.
Jake has a weak pilot ability? Being able to do three actions and hand one out seems pretty strong to me. Requires some careful flying though.
13 hours ago, Pooleman said:A-Wings are worse. Fragile, low initiative, weak unique pilot abilities.
7 hours ago, Okapi said:Jake has a weak pilot ability? Being able to do three actions and hand one out seems pretty strong to me. Requires some careful flying though.
A-wings are amazing, you have no idea.... They are the backbone of my lists. They are also very reasonably costed for what they do.
Jake is no end game Ace, but he is an amazing ship that is loads of fun and should not be underestimated. I have done magical things with that ship. My locals know to focus on Jake first because he does more than they ever expect him too. Jake has won me games!
My favorite local quote: "Jake touches me inappropriately without consent while Jan videotapes it". Said after Jake/Jan flawlessly took down Boba Fett and Fenn Rau..... for the third time that day.
3 minutes ago, Wiredin said:My favorite local quote: "Jake touches me inappropriately without consent while Jan videotapes it". Said after Jake/Jan flawlessly took down Boba Fett and Fenn Rau..... for the third time that day.
You made my day with that last ? Please send me that list, I have to try it now!
On topic with the E-Wing. Corran is right now way to expensive for a situational ability and unfortunatly IN5 is a very crowded tier, so gpoing without a bid makes it very dificult to leverage the E-wings arcdodging capabilities.
Also Gavin could be an interesting swarm support ship, but starting at 68 points doesn't leave much room for a swarm. Especially compared with the other squadron-wide support ships: Howlrunner (40), Jonus(38), Drea (40), Serissu(43).
I hope that the E-wing rerelease will bring unique R7 astros that synergise with the ship they were designed for.
22 minutes ago, DerRitter said:You made my day with that last ? Please send me that list, I have to try it now!
Sabine Wren (38)
Composure (2)
Jan Ors (42)
Trick Shot (1)
Jyn Erso (2)
Moldy Crow (12)
Jake Farrell (40)
Crack Shot (1)
AP-5 (30)
Lieutenant Blount (30)
Crack Shot (1)
Total: 199
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0
tons of action efficiency, very maneuverable, easy to set up kill boxes. able to spread out and still be effective. The secret is the Jake/Ap5 interaction. coordinate a roll to Jake, he rolls takes a focus. then he boosts and lets a friendly in range 1 to take a focus action. Then he does a blue maneuver and takes and evade or target lock. Meanwhile Jan hangs back far enough to position herself as the end game ship while supporting the team. I usually end up in the end game with a full health Jan and Jake with 2 hull or untouched. Can do a lot of damage in that situation.
19 hours ago, theBitterFig said:Anyhow, current E-Wings.
(...)
- K-Wing Options:
- Miranda could get Sabine. Then it'd be two pair, queens and jacks. There are potentially fun things to do with those Sabine control tokens. Maybe more fun than good.
- If taking Sabine over E-Wing upgrades, there's also room for another upgrade on Miranda. Advanced SLAM has an appeal, zoom out and focus or reload. Alternatively, Hull Upgrade helps her live longer, and is probably better than Shield Upgrade, since eventually you'll enter some sort of regen cycle. Other missiles don't really appeal, torpedoes don't really fit in price, and Seismic Charges dont make sense to me. I figure I want more obstacles making my opponent's pursuit trickier. Bomblet Generator might make sense, however. Miranda could reload for free if her shield remained from last round.
I kind of think I want to keep Miranda leaner (since she'll probably be easier to kill), and I think I want the Rogues. It's nice to have everyone Init 4, and I feel like the list might be lacking damage, and since Torpedoes won't fit unless Miranda only has a primary weapon, Crack Shot seems like the only way to possibly get more damage.
My version ran Hotshot gunner instead of Barrage rockets. Being able to throw a 1 die primary attack to strip tokens while regenerating is nice for the Ewings, and if you're ignored you can always throw 3 dice by spending the shield.