It's not a great comparison to the Defender. The white 4k, evade and extra shield are pretty huge in gameplay. The D flies in a unique way and fills a certain type of spot in a list.

I think comparing the E to the X Wing might be more useful. I imagine the squad role is more akin. Boom and zoom. Or support and boom.

So how much more utility does it have over an X, pts wise?

Rather than how much worse than a Defender...

I wonder whether it would be worth the points if it lost its linked actions and instead had the following ship ability: After you perform an action, you may acquire a target lock on a ship beyond range 3. No limit to a normal target lock, no stress for performing a linked action. Balanced by the range limit on the free lock, combined with the fact that you are telegraphing who you intend to attack. Also REALLY good on low-initiative pilots because you don't care that that your target moves after you for the purposes of getting your target lock.

9 minutes ago, MikeEvans said:

I wonder whether it would be worth the points if it lost its linked actions and instead had the following ship ability: After you perform an action, you may acquire a target lock on a ship beyond range 3.

That would stop any synergy with R3 Astromech however, as R3 gives you your second lock after taking a lock action. From my experience with E-Wings so far, R3s are one of the things that makes them work.

4 minutes ago, Jarval said:

That would stop any synergy with R3 Astromech however, as R3 gives you your second lock after taking a lock action. From my experience with E-Wings so far, R3s are one of the things that makes them work.

It wouldn't stop any synergy. Part of the R3's ability is that you can maintain up to two locks. You could "store" up to two locks using your ship's ability. Or you could take a target lock action, get one lock on a closer ship, and get one on a ship beyond range 3, and maintain both of them.

That's a fair point, and certainly not bad on thinking about it a little more.

If I was going to change the E-Wing on anything other than a points level, I'd just make the linked lock actions white rather than red. That stops the E-Wing from focus and locking most turns, which might be a bit much even at its current points!

Edit: This is strangely more of an issue for the lower Initiative ships, who are likely to find themselves beyond range 3 more frequently.

personally I think a link reposition to evade would be great, and not copying the fangs re position to focus or making it too overpowered to have reposition focus with a pre-lock. then again... redline does exist.

20 hours ago, Phelan Boots said:

Dude you’ve been wailing at the top of your lungs about quadjumpers in that thread, this is more than a little hypocritical.

This

The problem with changing the linked action or ship ability is that in practice it is far more drastic a fix than changing the point cost. 2.0 has the option to change points built in. You can change the point cost and nothing about the physical card is invalidated. The same can’t be true for changing actions that are printed on the card.

I know we are just spitballing right now and I don’t feel I can say that that kind of hard errata shouldn’t happen. But I do feel it’s early enough that advocating for the standard treatments makes more sense than going straight for the more invasive surgery.

13 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

The problem with changing the linked action or ship ability is that in practice it is far more drastic a fix than changing the point cost. 2.0 has the option to change points built in. You can change the point cost and nothing about the physical card is invalidated. The same can’t be true for changing actions that are printed on the card.

I know we are just spitballing right not and I don’t feel I can say that that kind of hard errata shouldn’t happen. But I do feel it’s early enough that advocating for the standard treatments makes more sense than going straight for the more invasive surgery.

For sure. To be honest, I think the E-Wing's ship ability and linked actions are pretty decent, and certainly nothing that a small points reduction couldn't push into being really quite competitive.

The only 2nd Edition ship that I've seen so far that I'm not convinced can be fixed by a points adjustment is the JumpMaster, which has had so many things stacked against it in its new incarnation...

9 minutes ago, Jarval said:

For sure. To be honest, I think the E-Wing's ship ability and linked actions are pretty decent, and certainly nothing that a small points reduction couldn't push into being really quite competitive.

The only 2nd Edition ship that I've seen so far that I'm not convinced can be fixed by a points adjustment is the JumpMaster, which has had so many things stacked against it in its new incarnation...

Yeah, the Jumpmaster is definitely in the running for worst ship in the game right now, in my opinion. It feels like they went a little too far in trying to make sure it wasn’t the monster it was in 1.0. I still need to take a crack at it to form a better conclusion on it and what it could need.

20 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Yeah, the Jumpmaster is definitely in the running for worst ship in the game right now, in my opinion. It feels like they went a little too far in trying to make sure it wasn’t the monster it was in 1.0. I still need to take a crack at it to form a better conclusion on it and what it could need.

Likewise. My gut instinct is that Dengar's pilot ability is probably still good enough for him to be decent if hampered by the dial, but the others really don't feel like they can measure up. The poor Contracted Scout is only 2 points less than Scum Han...

11 minutes ago, Jarval said:

Likewise. My gut instinct is that Dengar's pilot ability is probably still good enough for him to be decent if hampered by the dial, but the others really don't feel like they can measure up. The poor Contracted Scout is only 2 points less than Scum Han...

I’ve heard from a store in my area about some success with Dengar, but I haven’t seen anything from it or heard more, so not sure if it enjoys ongoing success or if it just had a luck streak.

Tel’s ability has always amused me, and now it’s even more interesting. Probably not good enough to save it, but still looks fun enough to try.

And then we have Manny and the Scout who are...there.

6 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

It's not a great comparison to the Defender. The white 4k, evade and extra shield are pretty huge in gameplay. The D flies in a unique way and fills a certain type of spot in a list.

I think comparing the E to the X Wing might be more useful. I imagine the squad role is more akin. Boom and zoom. Or support and boom.

So how much more utility does it have over an X, pts wise?

Rather than how much worse than a Defender...

With respect, both comparisons are good to make. The D is a good comparison because they are both expensive super fighters. However you are correct in that they fly differently (as they should...). The D’s white K-Turn and built-in Evade action sets it apart. But the E-Wing is much more capable of setting itself up for a full lock+focus engagement, and it’s dial is one of the best in the game, and superior to the D with exception to the white 4-speed K. Plug an R4 into it, and the E-Wing’s dial becomes a disturbing shade of blue. The D’s main advantage is that right out of the box it’s a powerhouse and doesn’t require much. While the E-Wing pretty much needs to use it’s astro and system slot.

That said, within the Rebel faction the direct comparison to the X-Wing is certainly a valid one. X-Wings are a workhorse now, and deserving of being the Rebellion’s mainline fighter. So validating an E-Wing over Wedge or Luke can be difficult, especially when a Knave starts at 61pts and is expected to put more points into it’s upgrades. Whereas for 61pts you can get an Elusive Wedge with an R2.

On 11/5/2018 at 8:41 PM, theBitterFig said:

When not even Nathan Eide is flying E-Wings, you know things are bad.

I'll say, I think Knaves have potential in Quickbuild format. A naked Knave Squadron Escort is 2 threat, which means 4 per list. That'd be up against Blue X-Wings or Gold Y-Wings with Torpedoes.

I could not agree more. I needed to clean my glasses when i saw Nathan fly SuperLuke and no Corran nameplate was visible under his name.

Quickbuild format is cute and all, but it’s kinda like playing Power level Warhammer 40k. Just that FFG is not trying to force it onto us as hard as GW tries. Few people care about it and no one i know plays it...

16 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

It's not a great comparison to the Defender. The white 4k, evade and extra shield are pretty huge in gameplay. The D flies in a unique way and fills a certain type of spot in a list.

I think comparing the E to the X Wing might be more useful. I imagine the squad role is more akin. Boom and zoom. Or support and boom.

So how much more utility does it have over an X, pts wise?

Rather than how much worse than a Defender...

I agree. Just my personal opinion here, but the Defender feels playable because of the free evade. It’s one less damage you take every turn, and combos naturally with one of the only unchanged useful talents out there. Juke. And it has the still useful white 4K

Unlike the Defenders ability, the E-Wing’s is not useful every turn and pushes it into a onetrick pony role.

But this kind of ship really needs the defensive tokens instead!

Evade is important on defender BUT quite everybody flight defenders with advanced sensors, that i advice you to try also on e wing paired with r4, so in reality you do not take so often the evade.

5 hours ago, Manolox said:

Evade is important on defender BUT quite everybody flight defenders with advanced sensors, that i advice you to try also on e wing paired with r4, so in reality you do not take so often the evade.

I fly the E-Wing with FCS because you play around that TL nicely. Especially if you play Corran and get the occasional double tap.

you don’t take Evade on the E-Wing often, but on the defender Juke is so strong because you usually get evade for free...

On the Defender i usually default to Collision detector or just nothing at all in the sensor slot. Sensors are also good, but Collision detector allows me to surprise the opposition as it usually gets forgotten even by good players. It also counters Quadjumpers nicely.

5 hours ago, Manolox said:

Evade is important on defender BUT quite everybody flight defenders with advanced sensors, that i advice you to try also on e wing paired with r4, so in reality you do not take so often the evade.

Empty sensor slot is more common than AS on competitive level defender builds.

The absolute biggest issue with the E-Wing at the moment is the fact that it loses in the squadbuilder; before you even pull it off of the shelf. I like the E-Wing, as it's my two favorite rebel ships glued together, and honestly, the ship itself seems to be fine. The linked actions are unimpressive, but it's dial and upgrade suite is very competent and compelling. However, it loses by just being stupidly over-costed. I keep trying to build lists with it in, but it really just does not warrant the crazy price hike compared to an X-Wing. I would happily take the lowest generic as a torp boat for about 62 points; competing with Wedge at that price point, but offering a number of things that Wedge does not. However that generic torp boat is 72 points at the moment, so I, along with seemingly all rebel players a the moment, will just take Wedge for 61 points every single time over it. Like I said, I want to fly E-Wings a lot, but I just cannot at the moment because it feels like you are throwing points in the trash that you would not be doing if you took a similar enough X-Wing instead. Also they screwed up Corran by not giving him Force. I might actually want to fly Corran as half a list if he had tricks to play around with. But alas, the E-Wing is going to stay over-costed for probably three more months and Rebels will just have to continue to be the "X-Wings with Torpedoes" Faction. At least it will give all of us painters plenty of time to get our E-Wings looking nice and spiffy.

I've been trying this:

Rogue Squadron Escort - Crack Shot - Proton Torpedoes - R3 Astromech

Rogue Squadron Escort - Crack Shot - Proton Torpedoes - R3 Astromech

Sabine Wren - Juke - Shield Upgrade

You get the initial Alpha double modded, with two choices for the torpedo. If all goes according to plan (does it ever), the first volley takes out the first target, and the next round you can alpha the second target. Crack Shot gives you later in the game offensive output. Sabine does Sabine things, with Shield Upgrade helping her go a little farther. I do wonder if, if I were better at the game, if Cassian would be a better upgrade on Sabine.

This is the best I could do for E-Wings, personally, though. Alpha potential, then knife fighting with that superb dial (wish the one turns were white or 2 turns were blue though). It definitely feels like it might be jolly good fun if you could fit 3 PS1s with Protons.

6 minutes ago, Clutterbuck said:

wish the one turns were white or 2 turns were blue though

You loose the second lock, but R4 turns them that...

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You loose the second lock, but R4 turns them that...

Face, meet palm. You'd think I would have noticed this at some point...

3 minutes ago, Clutterbuck said:

Face, meet palm. You'd think I would have noticed this at some point...

Might not be what your after though.

I think a comparison of I2 Generic X-Wings and E-Wings best highlights the problem.

You can get 4 X-Wings with Proton Torpedoes in a list, but the E-Wing with Protons comes in at 70 points so you can't even fit 3 in.

I think the sweet spot would be to be able to have 3 moderately equipped I2 generic E-Wings (i.e. with R3, FCS and Protons) in a list, meaning they'd have to total 66 points each - which means the base ship would have to be 51 points - a 10 point reduction from its current cost...

As to E-Wing pricing, I kind of think the best ship to compare them with is the Starviper. Some linked actions, 3 dice on both attack and defense. Both have a handy ship ability. Kind of similar upgrade bars, too. System, Torpedo, Mod, with Illicit or Droid being the difference. It's a lot easier to compare the effects of adding or deleting hit points than adjusting red or green dice (like comparing to an X-Wing).

E-Wing generics are 61/63, Starviper Generics are 46/48, so a 15 point difference. A shield upgrade is worth about 8 points in FFG's reckoning, and with the difference between hull and shield being 1 point, let's say that's another 1. So to equalize the statlines, it'd take 9 points added to a Starviper, so 55/57, so there's still a 6 point gap between a health-increased Starviper and an E-Wing. Long-range Locks are going to be better than bendy barrel rolls, I believe, but the linked lock actions are worse than linked focus on 3 green dice.

Going all the way down to a 51 point E-Wing seems kind of extreme in comparison to a Starviper, but a 55/57 point E-Wing kinda makes sense to me. That could be Proton Torpedos and R4 Astromechs at 66 on a Knave, or Elusive/R3/FCS on a Rogue, or something like that.