I had to walk away from this thread before I started writing troll content and got suspended again lol ?
With that tourney data, yeah I'm going to say my opinion was justified.
Rewrite tractors. That's my camp.
The Jakku Gunrunner appreciation thread
A real shame to see that not one suggestion could result in balance. All suggestions end up with destruction. Must be the lack off int. .
points increase is coming for jakku gunrunner...
im surprised Boba Fett didnt feature more at the top tables. That 5x bomber list that won the swiss looked brutal... didnt see that many dedicated bomber lists in the field... punisher aces style seemed more popular for imperials.
Can someone plz explain second table "most common pilots" plz?
Palob is number 1 in "most successful" and "least successful" - what does this tell me?
Edited by flooze10 minutes ago, flooze said:Can someone plz explain second table "most common pilots" plz?
Palob is number 1 in "most successful" and "least successful" - what does this tell me?
That he was in the majority of both Scum lists that made the day 2 cut and the majority of Scum lists that didn't. Simultaneously loosing and winning the most matches out of the Scum pilots.
54/132 scum. scum swarms didnt do as well as 3-4 ship scum lists. 2 top 8 scum lists virtually identical and both contained a single Jakku Gunrunner. 5 boba fett in top16 but none in top8.
Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber10 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:54/132 scum. scum swarms didnt do as well as 3-4 ship scum lists. 2 top 8 scum lists virtually identical and both contained a single Jakku Gunrunner. 5 boba fett in top16 but none in top8.
That was as of Sunday morning... The information on the spread sheet has not been updated since...
Partly this is local meta and local echo-chamber dependent as well.
Look at the Mynock Open, very few Quads up at top tables there, instead a ton of Redlines, and Whispers, esp. Cloak&Choke&Whispers (a lot more at that single tournament data point than at this single tournament data point, but relatively few Wedges overall). Redline and some Whisper combos (not necessarily the pilot herself) should definitely go up as well, if the Quads go up.
However, I would prefer FFG waits until Kylo+friends and Push-the-limit-Poe+friends comes out, and looks what happens then. Or at least is very conservative with price increases, instead of making ships unplayable by points hikes (some of the point increase suggestions here are ridiculous(ly salt driven)).
Edited by Managarmrspelling
catch22 here is if more ppl play scum then its more likely to win its way to top tables. scum is popular but imperials probably more popular in some areas. rebels will catch up. they just have fewer options compared to scum/imp right now.
18 minutes ago, Managarmr said:Partly this is local meta and local echo-chamber dependent as well.
Look at the Mynock Open, very few Quads up at top tables there, instead a ton of Redlines, and Whispers, esp. Cloak&Choke&Whispers (a lot more at that single tournament data point than at this single tournament data point, but relatively few Wedges overall). Redline and some Whisper combos (not necessarily the pilot herself) should definitely go up as well, if the Quads go up.
Just to say... there were three Redline/Deathrain/Whisper players in the Top-16, and it was two players from the prestigious 186th Squadron and world champ Simeon Dellapina. They all got beaten out by Scum.
But yes, I don't think ANYONE is saying Redline/Whisper/Deathrain aren't due an increase. Along with Quads, and Palob, and Han Gunner, and 4-LOM, and Barrage Rockets, and Scimitar Squadron Pilots... I can imagine increasing the points cost on about 70% of all pilots.
1 hour ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:54/132 scum. scum swarms didnt do as well as 3-4 ship scum lists. 2 top 8 scum lists virtually identical and both contained a single Jakku Gunrunner. 5 boba fett in top16 but none in top8.
The top 4 games were both the same.
Boba/Palob/2xQuad vs 4-Lom/Kavil/Palob/Quad.
There was a tiny discrepancy in the upgrades ... maybe 1 card difference in each of the lists.
42 minutes ago, Managarmr said:However, I would prefer FFG waits until Kylo+friends and Push-the-limit-Poe+friends comes out, and looks what happens then. Or at least is very conservative with price increases, instead of making ships unplayable by points hikes (some of the point increase suggestions here are ridiculous(ly salt driven)).
This seems reasonable - a points increase is probably warranted but there are 4 more factions of stuff to come - who knows what that may bring.
21 minutes ago, SOTL said:But yes, I don't think ANYONE is saying Redline/Whisper/Deathrain aren't due an increase. Along with Quads, and Palob, and Han Gunner, and 4-LOM, and Barrage Rockets, and Scimitar Squadron Pilots... I can imagine increasing the points cost on about 70% of all pilots.
Instead of increasing 70% of the pilots why not just reduce the points for the remaining 30%?
Just now, Hugeman said:Instead of increasing 70% of the pilots why not just reduce the points for the remaining 30%?
Because then you materially change what fits in at 200pts and it can have a much more radical impact.
What's the Boba Palob 2 Jakku list?
2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:What's the Boba Palob 2 Jakku list?
They were very slightly different. This is Adam's version which made the final, I think Geoff (semi-finalist) had Trick Shots and less bid.
4 hours ago, SOTL said:Just to say... there were three Redline/Deathrain/Whisper players in the Top-16, and it was two players from the prestigious 186th Squadron and world champ Simeon Dellapina. They all got beaten out by Scum.
But yes, I don't think ANYONE is saying Redline/Whisper/Deathrain aren't due an increase. Along with Quads, and Palob, and Han Gunner, and 4-LOM, and Barrage Rockets, and Scimitar Squadron Pilots... I can imagine increasing the points cost on about 70% of all pilots.
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, I'm still very much a noob on the table. How much do you think the point efficiency of the Scum 4 influenced the results?
It's just that, in my limited experience, all the games I've seen and played have been decided on the table, rather than in the build. I have a suspicion that a lot of the other decent lists beaten by the Scum this wknd, lack some flexibility on the table. Particularly Whisper + Punishers, which can steamroller a lot of things but possibly not react particularly well to others.
In short, that the Scum4s success is maybe not down to a particularly big advantage in point cost, but more in the myriad of ways it can counter less flexible lists with good decision making....
Ofc, the point efficiency helps, but is it that simple?
24 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:Forgive me if this is a stupid question, I'm still very much a noob on the table. How much do you think the point efficiency of the Scum 4 influenced the results?
It's just that, in my limited experience, all the games I've seen and played have been decided on the table, rather than in the build. I have a suspicion that a lot of the other decent lists beaten by the Scum this wknd, lack some flexibility on the table. Particularly Whisper + Punishers, which can steamroller a lot of things but possibly not react particularly well to others.
In short, that the Scum4s success is maybe not down to a particularly big advantage in point cost, but more in the myriad of ways it can counter less flexible lists with good decision making....
Ofc, the point efficiency helps, but is it that simple?
This is not a stupid question, it's a fantastic question. Made me stop and think again about how to position my answer.
Wretched Hive vs Redline/Whisper
I would say that this type of Scum list should cost 220-225 points, but then I'd also expect to see the Imperial Punisher lists go up to a similar ballpark cost in January. I think lists like these that are able to pack in 3 or 4 significantly undercosted cards are a clear S-Tier above everything else at the moment.
And yet as I said, the Imperials got totalled routinely by the Scum. So if I think both have 220pts worth of value in them they're on a par in terms of cost, and yet is beating the other, what's happening? So first of all, maybe that means the Scum needs to go up by even more and I've been conservative in saying it's only to 220. Second of all I think there's a bad matchup bit in here around how much the Scum are being hit by the bombs seeing as they've got both tough ships AND great range control (Jakku, Palob and 4-LOM can stop/reverse if they sense the bombs are coming), and in Tractor/Stress/Palob there's a lot of disruption & control built in alongside awesome action economy which Whisper doesn't like.
Wretched Hive vs History
The one big takeaway for me from my deep run into the tournament with the Scum list is that it felt incredibly forgiving... like a Paratanni level of being able to shrug your shoulders when bad things happen and just win anyway. I said in my interview after round 5 on stream that the list had pulled me to 3-0 and that's completely true: I was awful with it and it just refused to lose. Round 4 onwards I basically shouldn't have lost because I worked out how to play it, and the only reason it wasn't a mirror match final was because I threw my semi-final away with a major mistake.
The one big takeaway for me from my deep run into the tournament with the Scum list is that it felt incredibly forgiving... like a Paratanni level of being able to shrug your shoulders when bad things happen and just win anyway. I said in my interview after round 5 on stream that the list had pulled me to 3-0 and that's completely true: I was awful with it and it just refused to lose. Round 4 onwards I basically shouldn't have lost because I worked out how to play it, and the only reason it wasn't a mirror match final was because I threw my semi-final away with a major mistake.
We used to complain about how Attani Mindlink meant you were able to get actions even if you got bumped or stressed or whatever - ss long as one ship got free everyone was ok. In this list everyone is self-serving that sort of thing. Palob is stacking his tokens up in advance and still steal tokens, Kavil can turn any direction to clear stress and still get focus and an extra dice on his attack, 4-LOM with Advanced Sensors can't be stopped from taking 2 actions and passing you a stress. Yeah Kavil and Palob have rotate arcs not turrets, but so long as you're halfway planning ahead that's still getting you shots 90% of the time.
It's really, really dirty. One list shouldn't be able to joust this hard, have this much action economy, this much toughness, this much control AND be resilient to opponent's plays. Playing Kavil felt like playing Attani, playing 4-LOM felt like playing Commonwealth Defenders... overall it just felt like I had too many advantages.
8 hours ago, Honest globalist said:A real shame to see that not one suggestion could result in balance. All suggestions end up with destruction. Must be the lack off int. .
Insert Luke GIF saying "amazing, everything you just said is false"
When we needed to balance anything in the past, we had to rewrite them.
Cloak got rewritten
Biggs got rewritten
Jumpmasters got a few rewrites
It's how this works. Even the designers said that point changes have a limited range of ability to change things.
Edited by ForceSensitive
Spell check
This type of post is why your blog is a great read @SOTL ^ (shameless plug) great descriptive breakdown.
Palob is a lot more fair with droid pilots buzzing all over the place.
43 minutes ago, SOTL said:4-LOM with Advanced Sensors can't be stopped from taking 2 actions and passing you a stress.
You must be playing a different form of Advanced Sensors... Especially since none of the last four lists had any ability to use Coordinate...
1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:You must be playing a different form of Advanced Sensors... Especially since none of the last four lists had any ability to use Coordinate...
I think you forgot 4-LOMs full 2.0 pilot ability. Advance Sensors an action, having dialed up a red move and get a calculate token, have a stress to pass off.
2 minutes ago, DamianR said:I think you forgot 4-LOMs full 2.0 pilot ability. Advance Sensors an action, having dialed up a red move and get a calculate token, have a stress to pass off.
Okay. Its a little different in the specifics, but functionally the same.
6 hours ago, SOTL said:But yes, I don't think ANYONE is saying Redline/Whisper/Deathrain aren't due an increase. Along with Quads, and Palob, and Han Gunner, and 4-LOM, and Barrage Rockets, and Scimitar Squadron Pilots... I can imagine increasing the points cost on about 70% of all pilots.
Citation needed for "70%".
6 hours ago, Hugeman said:Instead of increasing 70% of the pilots why not just reduce the points for the remaining 30%?
This.
Increasing 70% over the board very probably leads to an uninteresting 2-3-ship-squadron meta. I actually like that we can have mini-swarms and swarms. Increasing all pilot's cost skews towards squads containg very few aces and/or comboships - we are back at pure Ace/Combowing.
Edited by ManagarmrQuote-formatting error fixed
1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:Insert Luke GIF saying "amazing, everything you just said is false"
When we needed to balance anything in the past, we had to rewrite them.
Cloak got rewritten
Biggs got rewritten
Jumpmasters got a few rewrites
It's how this works. Even the designers said that point changes have a limited range of ability to change things.
I'd bet anything that in 2.0 the text on cards will not be changed,
except in
those rare circumstances where something is printed with a typo or worded in a way that technically doesn't work in the game. The entire fanfare around 2.0 was that FFG could finally avoid having to errata the text on products already in the hands of customers, and that the variable point-costs would be the silver bullet solution to finally attaining reasonable game balance in competitive X-Wing.
For FFG to go and errata the text of cards now... well I'd think it would quickly undermine the legitimacy of 2.0 and show that the Emperor's not wearing any clothes...
Far more likely they'll just pull a "Gunner Luke" and absurdly price the Gunrunners entirely out of the game before they'd errata the text of tractor arrays or how tractor beam tokens worked.