If you build your list just to have L337 and 2 gunrunners tractor beam one ship, you don't know how to play a gunrunner and your opponent definitely deserves the lose. It's an annoying trick, but that's it. It's a one trick pony and really not worth it. It's disruptive at best.

14 hours ago, SOTL said:

Because it's been taken as the base cost for the vast majority of other ships in the game in their conversion to 2.0, so the fact that the Gunrunner has come across with a major discount while other ships haven't means that it has increased massively in cost effectiveness/power level compared to the other ships in the game.

I mean... that's pretty obvious, no?

No - I contend that you assertion is wrong.

Based on Generics (numbers in brackets are 2.0 points for clarity) here are the points.

A-Wing 1.0 17 (34) pts A-Wing 2.0 30pts (also gained barrel roll and Linked Boost)

Z-95 1.0 12 (24) pts Z-95 2.0 23pts (also gained red barrel roll and mod slot)

Hawk 1.0 16 (32) pts Hawk 2.0 32pts (also gained 1Atk on primary and it is now a turret)

Y-Wing 1.0 18 (36) pts Y-Wing 2.0 32pts (also gained reload, barrel roll, device slot, gunner slot, mod slot and illicit slot)

Interceptor 1.0 18 (36) pts Interceptor 2.0 34pts (also gained linked barrel roll or boost and 2 mod slots)

Phantom 1.0 25 (50) pts Phantom 2.0 44pts (also gained 1 Hull and mod slot)

Gunrunner 1.0 15 (30) pts Gunrunner 2.0 28pts (also gained tractor array and red evade)

I do not have time to go into dial changes.

I could go on but I think the point is there or am I wrong?

16 minutes ago, Hugeman said:

No - I content that you assertion is wrong.

Based on Generics (numbers in brackets are 2.0 points for clarity) here are the points.

A-Wing 1.0 17 (34) pts A-Wing 2.0 30pts (also gained barrel roll and Linked Boost)

Z-95 1.0 12 (24) pts Z-95 2.0 23pts (also gained red barrel roll and mod slot)

Hawk 1.0 16 (32) pts Hawk 2.0 32pts (also gained 1Atk on primary and it is now a turret)

Y-Wing 1.0 18 (36) pts Y-Wing 2.0 32pts (also gained reload, barrel roll, device slot, gunner slot, mod slot and illicit slot)

Interceptor 1.0 18 (36) pts Interceptor 2.0 34pts (also gained linked barrel roll or boost and 2 mod slots)

Phantom 1.0 25 (50) pts Phantom 2.0 44pts (also gained 1 Hull and mod slot)

Gunrunner 1.0 15 (30) pts Gunrunner 2.0 28pts (also gained tractor array and red evade)

I do not have time to go into dial changes.

I could go on but I think the point is there or am I wrong?

You do realize that Jakku also has the built in (and improved) Spacetug, which alone should be costing at least 4 points based on 1.0 price, right?

I’m afraid your example is not proving what you wanted, but rather the opposite..

3 hours ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

If you build your list just to have L337 and 2 gunrunners tractor beam one ship, you don't know how to play a gunrunner and your opponent definitely deserves the lose. It's an annoying trick, but that's it. It's a one trick pony and really not worth it. It's disruptive at best.

Drea swarms are playing 2x Jakku and L337 routinely, do you call them “one trick pony’s”???

And this was just an example what they are capable of, which does not mean Jakku player should be doing this every turn.

But at least Jakku + L337 is a very commonly used in combination to vastly improve the tractor action radius.

Which should be a common knowledge to anybody who played with or against Drea swarm list.

But apparently since many people here don’t know this or dismiss it as “gimmick”, this example was required.

But I can see now that Jakku fans here have moved to full trolling territory, which I have no interest in. Good day and have fun with your totally balanced toys..

10 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

But I can see now that Jakku fans here have moved to full trolling territory, which I have no interest in. Good day and have fun with your totally balanced toys..

Kay, Bye! ?

1 hour ago, baranidlo said:

You do realize that Jakku also has the built in (and improved) Spacetug, which alone should be costing at least 4 points based on 1.0 price, right?

I’m afraid your example is not proving what you wanted, but rather the opposite..

And his very first example, the A-Wing, had Chardaan Refit to fix the cost and the convert over at 15=30.

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

And his very first example, the A-Wing, had Chardaan Refit to fix the cost and the convert over at 15=30.

Hmm. So they need to add that it no longer has to pay an extra 2 points on its missiles and got its linked actions for no change in points...

1 hour ago, baranidlo said:

Drea swarms are playing 2x Jakku and L337 routinely, do you call them “one trick pony’s”???

And this was just an example what they are capable of, which does not mean Jakku player should be doing this every turn.

But at least Jakku + L337 is a very commonly used in combination to vastly improve the tractor action radius.

Which should be a common knowledge to anybody who played with or against Drea swarm list.

But apparently since many people here don’t know this or dismiss it as “gimmick”, this example was required.

But I can see now that Jakku fans here have moved to full trolling territory, which I have no interest in. Good day and have fun with your totally balanced toys..

No, it is a gimmick. There's a reason it hasn't made that big of a splash. If you aren't prepared for it, it most definitely can set you back. If the person across from you knows what to expect, they can set their approach accordingly. It's very apparent they won't use it every turn, but it's very easy to punish the Drea swarm for sacrificing position and agility on a tug to set that up.

The fact things like that happened is a big part of why the 2.0 costs are so completely screwed up. They messed around with what ships did in a big way then ported the 1.0 cost over and rolled a dice for how many points to add on or take off.

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

The fact things like that happened is a big part of why the 2.0 costs are so completely screwed up. They messed around with what ships did in a big way then ported the 1.0 cost over and rolled a dice for how many points to add on or take off.

It's almost.... Like it's a different game!

Fwiw I don't like 7 Quads and I also like the Drea Swarm without L3 and running 2Q4Zz

But that doesn't mean the Quad isn't WAY too cheap.

Just now, Hujoe Bigs said:

It's almost.... Like it's a different game!

Not really, it's the same game underlying and FFGs incompetence is very apparent to players at the sharp end who are exposing precisely how poorly they designed/costed things in the transition.

1 hour ago, baranidlo said:

You do realize that Jakku also has the built in (and improved) Spacetug, which alone should be costing at least 4 points based on 1.0 price, right?

I’m afraid your example is not proving what you wanted, but rather the opposite..

Read the whole post.

I noted it in the extras that were added for comparison with the other ships.

By your reckoning

The Phantom is 8.5 points undercosted (if we add in the extra hull it now has) (I am sure the holy siorcerer would love all phantoms to go up 9 points - lol)

The hawk is around 10 points undercosted if we add in the extra attack die for the primary and change to a turret.

The Y-wing is 6 points under.

etc etc etc

Do a proper comparison not an isolated, biased assessment of one ship

Y-Wing is probably a few points under. I could definitely see the HWK going up by 10, though most of that would be in the title.

I think they screwed the cost up on 90% of pilots. But in that, the Quad is up there in the Tier II of major mistakes (Tier I being Redline etc).

12 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I think they screwed the cost up on 90% of pilots. But in that, the Quad is up there in the Tier II of major mistakes (Tier I being Redline etc).

Man that's a big call - I take it you aren't enjoying the game then?

I must admit I am enjoying the game immensely.

Oh and for the record I have played around 20 games of 2.0 and used 1 gunrunner on one occasion.

My casual group were discussing point costs last night and most were actually for things that are over costed.

We came up with - Jumpmaster, Decimator, Ghost, Tie Aggressor (more because missiles and turrets are garbage), E-Wing, Lancer and Arc-170

I agree on Redline - wayyyyy under.

I enjoy playing the game, but I'm not enjoying watching the train wreck of competitive play crunching down to the dozen or so pilots they most egregiously screwed up on (apart from the satisfaction of calling a good chunk of it all two months ago with my Ten Squads in Ten Days).

You always have to find ways to enjoy FFG games despite FFG making them, rather than because FFG made them.

Man, that's a lot of negativity. Trainwreck, egregiously screwed up, incompetent designers, major mistakes? I mean sure, 2.0 is not perfect, but it's much better than 1.0 ever was.

I agree there's a couple of cards that are slightly over- or undercosted, but the way you're describing would make anyone thing the game is borderline unplayable. What are you comparing it to? Can't be 1.0. Armada? Guild Ball? Certainly not Warhammer, or anything else GW ever made. Definitely not Magic either. Is there any competitive miniatures or card game that's better balanced than X-Wing 2.0?

Pretty much any FFG game is broken out of the gate, and X-Wing 2nd Edition is no exception.

Every game I have played has been fun. Every game I have watched has been interesting. For me, the disappearance of 360 turrets and easy, infinite regen is enough to cover many, many sins.

The Gunrunner will go up in price. It's probably in the top five or at least top ten of cards that need a points increase. It's not necessarily ruining the game but it does make most other cheap scum generics look pretty worthless. For Force's sake, the Cartel Spacer costs 29. (Granted that's likely a combo of spacer being over costed as well.)

15 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

I'd love to see the picture of 2 quads and L337. I've not flown L337 yet and have no idea what she even does. I'm a pretty objective guy. who knows, you may change my mind. but it's cool if you don't want to take the time to make an image. I prob wouldn't either. :-)

I prefer the Outer Rim Pioneer with Tac Officer and then Unkar as 1 of my 2 Quads. I have flown 2 or 3 quad lists about 15+ times and a single quad list 8 times in 2E. My list for next Monday will feature 5 (or 6 for Sarco) defense die quads!

Shenanigans!

7 hours ago, SOTL said:

Fwiw I don't like 7 Quads and I also like the Drea Swarm without L3 and running 2Q4Zz

But that doesn't mean the Quad isn't WAY too cheap.

Is it though? I mean One big recent tournament fearured them heavily (Mynock), while the other (Nordic) had one single Spacetug in top 16. And not in a Drea list either.

Imho that was because Imperial Alphastrikers made up 6/16 at that tournament. That is the list that shuts down Quadjumpers reliably.

i mean they still are strong, but WAY overpriced my be also incorrect if they have such a hard counter.

Yes, it is.

Those two facts are only partially related. The Contracted Scout was always undercosted in 1st Edition. Sometimes it was undercosted and featured in a strong list, sometimes it was undercosted and it didn't feature in a strong list because of other swirling factors around it in the metagame. But it was always undercosted.

2 hours ago, SOTL said:

Yes, it is.

Those two facts are only partially related. The Contracted Scout was always undercosted in 1st Edition. Sometimes it was undercosted and featured in a strong list, sometimes it was undercosted and it didn't feature in a strong list because of other swirling factors around it in the metagame. But it was always undercosted.

I agree, but J5Ks were always overperforming untill they changed every slot and ability on it. Dengar, Manaroo, Generics... **** even the other guy whose name i never remember was good. There were barely any counters to it either.

The Quad on the other hand has very hard matchups at least.

9 hours ago, SOTL said:

I could definitely see the HWK going up by 10, though most of that would be in the title.

I agree that the moldy crow hwk is a steal right now. But I hope they will not touch the chassis much, since without the title is quite toothless