1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

I haven't really faced them, so I can't speak from experience, but people shouldn't be required to bring one, specific upgrade just because they might face a particular card.

Lists will never be 100% balanced, but it should be possible to play against a list without needing a hard counter.

I have seen ordnance lists do well against them in general in my playgroup. Jonus Bombers for instance have stomped the list especially. There are counters to Drea Gunrunners. It’s not as if they had no weaknesses.

I think that many other lists can beat Gunrunners, but against Triple ace lists they are at an advantage. But they are still beatable by them too.

This is a sign of a healthy meta imho. The Gunrunners are really competitively priced, but i hope they don’t overcompensate for it so that they are completely unplayable afterwards.

42 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Well it prob won't be in Hyperspace format anyway so Quads aren't gonna be an issue next year.

I hope this Hyperspace doesn’t kill X-Wing. I am very sceptical about this kind of format splitting.

I see a lot of game groups not adopting it, and i don’t know if X-Wing has:

a) the critical mass of ships to make for an interesting game with this limited format. Might make for very few competitive options and monotonous mirror matches even more often.

b) the critical player mass to support more formats. We are not MtG which can easily run a multitude of formats in parallel.

I hope i am wrong about this. I would prefer them introducing different well balanced scenarios on tournaments aside from deathmatch, like in Armada, if they meed to spice competitive play up. This alone would inprove list variety if well done, without taking options away and divide the community.

6 minutes ago, Hugeman said:

Can I be first in line to play you with this.

Trandoshan Slaver — YV-666 Light Freighter	58
Ship Total: 58
Trandoshan Slaver — YV-666 Light Freighter	58
Ship Total: 58
Han Solo — Customized YT-1300	54
Trick Shot	1
0-0-0	3
BT-1	2
Rigged Cargo Chute	4
Electronic Baffle	2
Lando’s Millennium Falcon	6
Ship Total: 72
Autopilot Drone — Escape Craft	12
Ship Total: 12

Large-base ships really just need to go away forever. I'd even be willing to get rid of the Lambda if it meant never having to see any other large-base ship ever again.

6 minutes ago, ForceM said:

I think that many other lists can beat Gunrunners, but against Triple ace lists they are at an advantage. But they are still beatable by them too.

Many people are reasoning that if something “can be beaten” then it’s not a problem for the game.

These people are wrong.

Triple Jumps could be beaten. Dengaroo could be beaten. Fenn/Kanan could be beaten.

The question is are jakku gunrunners meta warping? By that I mean the jumpmaster eliminated certain types of squads from the game. Will jakku gunrunner do this? I dont think so but time and tournament results will ultimately decide. Its just a bit too early to answer that definitively.

15 minutes ago, Hugeman said:

Can I be first in line to play you with this.

Trandoshan Slaver — YV-666 Light Freighter	58
Ship Total: 58
Trandoshan Slaver — YV-666 Light Freighter	58
Ship Total: 58
Han Solo — Customized YT-1300	54
Trick Shot	1
0-0-0	3
BT-1	2
Rigged Cargo Chute	4
Electronic Baffle	2
Lando’s Millennium Falcon	6
Ship Total: 72
Autopilot Drone — Escape Craft	12
Ship Total: 12

You could drop the drone and up one of the Slaver's to Lattz + Rigged to give them a taste of their own medicine.

Latts Razzi (66)
Rigged Cargo Chute (4)

Trandoshan Slaver (58)

Han Solo (54)
Trick Shot (1)
0-0-0 (3)
BT-1 (2)
Rigged Cargo Chute (4)
Electronic Baffle (2)
Lando’s Millennium Falcon (6)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

3 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

The question is are jakku gunrunners meta warping? By that I mean the jumpmaster eliminated certain types of squads from the game. Will jakku gunrunner do this? I dont think so but time and tournament results will ultimately decide. Its just a bit too early to answer that definitively.

Spot on!

2 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

The question is are jakku gunrunners meta warping? By that I mean the jumpmaster eliminated certain types of squads from the game. Will jakku gunrunner do this? I dont think so but time and tournament results will ultimately decide. Its just a bit too early to answer that definitively.

Based on tournament results there is already unhealthy dominance of jousting lists in the top cuts - sometimes as high as 75-85%.

Quadjumpers are making it even harder for the Ace lists to compete in this environment.

Instead of the Combowing or Acewing, we are now having a Joustwing.

In addition to that the mechanics of Spacetug Tractor Array is defying some of the elementary rules of the game, and therefore should be very restricted in principle. Definitely not present on a very cheap and pretty durable generic pilot.

3 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Based on tournament results there is already unhealthy dominance of jousting lists in the top cuts - sometimes as high as 75-85%.

Quadjumpers are making it even harder for the Ace lists to compete in this environment.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is jousting, and how is it different from flying aces?

2 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Based on tournament results there is already unhealthy dominance of jousting lists in the top cuts - sometimes as high as 75-85%.

Quadjumpers are making it even harder for the Ace lists to compete in this environment.

Instead of the Combowing or Acewing, we are now having a Joustwing.

In addition to that the mechanics of Spacetug Tractor Array is defying some of the elementary rules of the game, and therefore should be very restricted in principle. Definitely not present on a very cheap and pretty durable generic pilot.

im not seeing enough results from the top tables myself. jousting lists do not always contain jakku gunrunner. seems unfair toput the blame onto a single ship for a style of list. Can you support your argument with some evidence? i agree jakku gunrunner is undercosted but if it was as dominant as you suggest we would see alot more heat for it in these forums other than in this single thread.

Nerf the Quad - Nerf the Quad - Nerf the Quad ........

1 minute ago, Hugeman said:

Nerf the Quad - Nerf the Quad - Nerf the Quad ........

haha! bring back the jumpmaster. It was far less broken than the quad

1 minute ago, baranidlo said:

Based on tournament results there is already unhealthy dominance of jousting lists in the top cuts - sometimes as high as 75-85%.

Quadjumpers are making it even harder for the Ace lists to compete in this environment.

Instead of the Combowing or Acewing, we are now having a Joustwing.

In addition to that the mechanics of Spacetug Tractor Array is defying some of the elementary rules of the game, and therefore should be very restricted in principle. Definitely not present on a very cheap and pretty durable generic pilot.

Spacetugs are not nearly as oppressive or dominant as some of the lists we had in 1.0

They are one of a few current good meta lists, but i see no reason to see them as the boogiemen that Dengaroo or Phantoms were for instance.

And they are beatable by a diversity of lists while having an advantage against others. And having counters in the form of ordnance lists IS relevant, no matter what you say. Because, if an overabundance of Tugs make tournaments, people will counter it with ordnance alphastrikes very soon, making the list less desirable to play.

I agree that they are maybe a few points too cheap, but they should remain a factor in the meta. I find that they are very interesting to play and play against, sorry that you disagree and don’t like the tractor array, but i hope it stays in the meta.

15 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

pretty durable generic pilot

wut?

These things can pop like a can of Pillsbury dough on a hot day. Not to mention that they are basically crit magnets.

19 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Spacetug Tractor Array is defying some of the elementary rules of the game

Like what?

2 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

wut?

These things can pop like a can of Pillsbury dough on a hot day. Not to mention that they are basically crit magnets.

3 focused range 2 shots with 3 dice will only do on average 4.1 damage against Quadjumper, which not enough to kill it. If you want to be sure to erase one in opening engagement, you pretty much have to bring torpedoes => meta warping.

4 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

Like what?

Like for example that you should deserve the benefit of tractor beaming opponent by lining and landing a shot, not just by point and click at range one.

Or that an obscure puny ugly generic should not be able to control pretty much one third of the play map. I would draw you a picture of where 2 Quadjumpers and L337 can go and land tractors, but it would be a waste of my time and you would still refuse to understand why that is a problem.

This is sounding like the arguments over post nerf "stunlock" rogues from WoW awhile back... Okay, a long while back, but basically the same argument is going on here.

3 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

3 focused range 2 shots with 3 dice will only do on average 4.1 damage against Quadjumper, which not enough to kill it. If you want to be sure to erase one in opening engagement, you pretty much have to bring torpedoes => meta warping.

Sure. If you definitely feel the need to kill one in a single round. don't think that is a widely accepted thought. Certainly not enough to call it meta warping. If you personally feel the need to do that, yeah, it will affect how You personally build lists I guess.

5 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Like for example that you should deserve the benefit of tractor beaming opponent by lining and landing a shot, not just by point and click at range one.

you do have to land it. and you have to be even more precise to tractor a larger base with the bullseye. and you have to spend your action to do it instead of rolling dice. a bit easier than rolling that's for sure. But you need an action. so you can't do it off a red maneuver, while stressed and can't hit any obstacles or bump. Hardly point and click. but sometimes its a cinch, sometimes it's not. Last game I played I had two tugs and didn't land a single tractor before they got creamed.

I'd love to see the picture of 2 quads and L337. I've not flown L337 yet and have no idea what she even does. I'm a pretty objective guy. who knows, you may change my mind. but it's cool if you don't want to take the time to make an image. I prob wouldn't either. :-)

29 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

im not seeing enough results from the top tables myself. jousting lists do not always contain jakku gunrunner. seems unfair toput the blame onto a single ship for a style of list. Can you support your argument with some evidence? i agree jakku gunrunner is undercosted but if it was as dominant as you suggest we would see alot more heat for it in these forums other than in this single thread.

Quadjumpers are only starting to be played in numbers - it will get worse before it gets better (January).

They are not the sole sinner, and other undercosted jousters need to have their butts kicked by the points rebalancing. Punishers, Bombers, Sloan swarms also need to be reigned in.

Swarms, Aces, Turrets, Jousters, Alphas should be closely split for a truly healthy and balanced meta.

That is a far call from the current state.

Many have predicted that jousters and undercosted generics will be dominating 2.0 and that have come to be truth because of overnerfing of Aces and turrets.

Yes, great players are having fun and winning with Aces, but they are defying the odds based on their personal skill, and not because of balanced or even advantageous matchups.

4 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

I'd love to see the picture of 2 quads and L337. I've not flown L337 yet and have no idea what she even does. I'm a pretty objective guy. who knows, you may change my mind. but it's cool if you don't want to take the time to make an image. I prob wouldn't either. ?

Sorry, but really don’t have the time to do that now.

But here’s an example for a mental picture:

So what you can do for example is move one of Jakkus and tractor the other one forward (yes your own ship to basically boost it). Then the “boosted” Jakku moves, doing for example 3 bank, and then it can also do a barrel roll. Finally L337 activates, moves and coordinates the second Jakku to actually do the tractor beaming.

So it’s not as simple as watching for speed 2 and 3 moves.

You can unlock many more combinations if you upgrade one Jakku to Unkar Plutt.

3 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

So what you can do for example is move one of Jakkus and tractor the other one forward (yes your own ship to basically boost it). Then the “boosted” Jakku moves, doing for example 3 bank, and then it can also do a barrel roll. Finally L337 activates, moves and coordinates the second Jakku to actually do the tractor beaming.

Which leaves the coordinated Gunrunner at agility 1, no mods if you barrel roll, a focus or an evade if you do that instead of the barrel roll. Though those are not much use on a single green die... Why didn't you delete it again?

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Which leaves the coordinated Gunrunner at agility 1, no mods if you barrel roll, a focus or an evade if you do that instead of the barrel roll. Though those are not much use on a single green die... Why didn't you delete it again?

Quad player would do this combination only if he is sure to land the tractor, which will very probably put your tractored ship out of combat (on a rock or without an arc), and it’s also possible that some of your other ships will bump or overshoot the coordinated Quad.

Unless you predicted this and played some defensive maneuvers, which again means some of your ships will not have optimal shots.

Yes, you can kite with the Quads and come eventually on top, but the sheer amount of board controls this little buggers have surely doesn’t seem balanced or healthy to me.

12 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Sorry, but really don’t have the time to do that now.

no worries. Thanks for the mental picture. that sounds like fun! might have to try that. but if that tractored quad gets shot at, it's gonna get creamed. sounds pretty risky and situational but still fun to attempt. Prob could only pull that off once if you set it up just right.

1 hour ago, baranidlo said:

Quad player would do this combination only if he is sure to land the tractor, which will very probably put your tractored ship out of combat (on a rock or without an arc), and it’s also possible that some of your other ships will bump or overshoot the coordinated Quad.

Unless you predicted this and played some defensive maneuvers, which again means some of your ships will not have optimal shots.

Yes, you can kite with the Quads and come eventually on top, but the sheer amount of board controls this little buggers have surely doesn’t seem balanced or healthy to me.

And you do all of this shenanigans using the effective actions and movement of 78 points worth of ships for what result? - one tractor token and the movement of 1 small based enemy ship onto a rock or debris if you can manage to put the combination together without making an error. Leaving said 78 points of ships hopelessly positioned next turn.

1 minute ago, Hugeman said:

some of your ships will not have optimal shots. 

Says it all really

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Forgive my ignorance, but what is jousting, and how is it different from flying aces?

Jousting is when two ships fly head on to each other and try and hit harder than the opponent, just like medieval knights on horse back. A ship is said to be a jouster the more it prefers to be head on to it's opponent. Xs, Fangs, Starwin g, and others fall into this category. Arc dodger is anything that really shouldn't risk a joust, like Interceptors, rebel solo TIE, and scycks. Ace's can fall into either category. Soontir with Outmaneuver is a super dodger, Wedge with petition torps is a super jouster. It's a concept that came around years back when the game was coming out of it's first full year. There are several articles about it, some written by Paul Heaver are really good. Just be glad the triangle that used to include turrets is gone. Turrets got terrible because as turrets they could win on their jousting efficiency while also arc dodging with reposition off a large base and.

Jousting efficiency is often a composite calculation of expected damage output to damage received in a turn versus the cost of the ship. Fenn in a Fang is arguably the real best jouster. The original game was roughly built around the basic TIE ironically being the 'best'. Hope this helps.

If Hitler was a pilot in X-wing, there'd be people lined up to say he's fine, git gud, no reason to change...