7 hours ago, Managarmr said:

The same rationale ("break of the perfect information system required for a healthy double blind gameplay design") applies for

Informant

Sense

Snoke

Not even the same ball park as to the point I'm making, please allow me to explain the difference. Throw Cassian in the list too so we got them all included while we're at it. All those upgrades do is change the timing of revealing hidden info, they don't change information of ships positions that we are supposed to have when we're making plans. The best they can do with the early reveal is use their reposition moves or select actions accordingly or combo into an ability like Heras. Just like we do now that decloak happens at device phase, we can adjust, but within a set of limitations. But they don't change the information of where everything starts that was supposed to be perfectly revealed going into the planning phase when before we put down locked dials. Old Cloaks game break, even new cloak still to a small extent, and now Action Tractors, was to change information you were supposed to start with revealed, after you have made decisions with it. They make the start point wrong for how plans are made. Notably you don't see any of the current three Intel officer variants, and I doubt we'll see terribly much of Snoke, because all they do is show you something that a skilled player already guessed, and both sides still have already set all their dials with total perfect information of the board setup. (Ironically, they would be great effects to have with tractors, but hardly worth the investment) But it's such a minor effect that skill usually overrides anyway that there's no point in taking them over any other effect that could gain you positional or combat advantage.

Supernatural Reflexes is another offender of this while we're here. It's better than advanced sensors since it doesn't stop action chains, and it gives for a price the same board change before reveal that you get from tractors, plus two extra positions, that only the controlling player gets to know where the ship is actually starting, and they can even change that at initiative. It's why we see super all over the place, but I had to go look up what sense even cost.

You would have a valid point if the Intel effects were used in the game in support of it's healthy core mechanics. But here we have column A with Cassian, Informant, Sense, all not in lists with any meaningful occurrence rate whatsoever, if showing up at all. And column B of Super, Advsen, Tractor, Cloak, all posting good to great numbers in high tier play. What do we conclude? Changing board state after plans are set but before dials are revealed is a greater effect than revealing a dial without changing board state. One breaks the blind, the other one doesn't. And for Force sake super costs 12, AdvSen is 8 and a Phantom is a forth of your list before upgrades. There's no excuse for a similar effect for 28 points that doesn't need to even bother with upgrades and can still deal damage and block.

5 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

 If  Gunrunners are a counter to Aces, we don't really need them in a generics only format anyway.

I'm curious what you would consider init 4 in a generics only game? Fodder?

10 hours ago, baranidlo said:

w hat you can do for example is move one of Jakkus and tractor the other one forward. Then then 2nd Jakku moves, doing for example 3 bank, and then it can also do a barrel roll. Finally L337 activates, moves and coordinates the second Jakku to actually do the tractor beaming

Oh come on, I only did that to you once and it did not help me with jack

You also give up 1 green die and mods on 3 ships for that.

If we can stop overreacting for a moment a think about the lists it's good in it likely needs something like 2 point increase.

Just enough to make it not fit into 200 with other scum power pieces like Boba and Palob or to make you have to remove that 7th swarm ship or some utility upgrades because you're suddenly at 204-206 points.

And hey, they can rotate the Jakku Gunrunner out of tournament legality anytime the like, leaving you with the uniques only.

3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

@ForceM Just FYI, Guri is a she. An android or something similar but definitely she. All you youngsters not knowing your Shadows of the Empire. Get off my lawn... Grumblegrumble

I know. But technically it should be an IT then ?

A big reason that Quads are so powerful at the moment is that large based ships are close to nonexistent. If a 2 large ship list was viable, it would really limit the tugboats. Imagine running into a decimator or ghost with a list that relies on tugs. The problem is, large based ships can't compete against any other meta lists.

47 minutes ago, ForceM said:

I know. But technically it should be an IT then ?

I resent your organocentrist attitudes.

On 11/5/2018 at 11:03 AM, player3010587 said:

We need to establish large bases as enough of a meta staple to stunt the tugs' natural effectiveness. Hence, my thread asking if Dash has potential.

As someone who pretty much gave up on 1.0 because of fat fortresses (no relation to the move known as Fortressing) being no fun to play against, I'm fine with it never coming back. Maybe it's just my affinity for Lambdas, but I feel Large ships should be in more of a support role, not tanky engines of destruction capable of devastating entire space forces on their own.

19 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

I don't see it happening but making the quadjumper limited so you can only have one in a list would be an interesting fix.

Sounds like I'd better try out my 7 Quadjumper list while I still can! In particular, I want to have one along a board edge move first, and then all the others go and pass it right across the board. Though, if I'm going to do that, I should probably make sure to have Swan Lake or something similar queued up in my playlist.

13 hours ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

<Mining TIEs> will be the natural predator of gunrunners.

Guilds vs Smugglers. Star Wars returns once again to trade disputes. The circle is now complete...

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

As someone who pretty much gave up on 1.0 because of fat fortresses (no relation to the move known as Fortressing) being no fun to play against, I'm fine with it never coming back. Maybe it's just my affinity for Lambdas, but I feel Large ships should be in more of a support role, not tanky engines of destruction capable of devastating entire space forces on their own.

I didn't mean to trigger any PTSD, lol. But I like to fly what is not meta, or if meta, at least what is harder to fly. In my effort to fly non-meta, I dabbled in Whisper + RAC (despite the very meta components of juke, collision, and vader). The fact that turrets fly very differently (and even with their own personalities to other turrets) and have to commit to a target's expected location has me excited for an aspect of the game that I had spurned (rightfully so) earlier. And 2 ship lists add a fascinating dynamic to a deathmatch when your opponent has a minimum of 3 more dice than you do. EVERYTHING IS A SHADOWCASTER WITH FLAVOR, AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!

7 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

I didn't mean to trigger any PTSD, lol. But I like to fly what is not meta, or if meta, at least what is harder to fly. In my effort to fly non-meta, I dabbled in Whisper + RAC (despite the very meta components of juke, collision, and vader). The fact that turrets fly very differently (and even with their own personalities to other turrets) and have to commit to a target's expected location has me excited for an aspect of the game that I had spurned (rightfully so) earlier. And 2 ship lists add a fascinating dynamic to a deathmatch when your opponent has a minimum of 3 more dice than you do. EVERYTHING IS A SHADOWCASTER WITH FLAVOR, AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Maybe if they put a hard limit of "Max 3 upgrades per ship" or something like that.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

As someone who pretty much gave up on 1.0 because of fat fortresses (no relation to the move known as Fortressing) being no fun to play against, I'm fine with it never coming back. Maybe it's just my affinity for Lambdas, but I feel Large ships should be in more of a support role, not tanky engines of destruction capable of devastating entire space forces on their own.

What kept them alive in 1.0? What upgrades pushed them over the top in output? Do they have access to these upgrades in 2.0?

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

As someone who pretty much gave up on 1.0 because of fat fortresses (no relation to the move known as Fortressing) being no fun to play against, I'm fine with it never coming back. Maybe it's just my affinity for Lambdas, but I feel Large ships should be in more of a support role, not tanky engines of destruction capable of devastating entire space forces on their own.

Sounds like I'd better try out my 7 Quadjumper list while I still can! In particular, I want to have one along a board edge move first, and then all the others go and pass it right across the board. Though, if I'm going to do that, I should probably make sure to have Swan Lake or something similar queued up in my playlist.

There are some large ships that should be apart of the meta at all times if possible. The 2.0 large ship was given in some cases to much of a correction but ships the likes of the Millennium Falcon and Slave 1 so always have a place in the game. This is the same argument made about the games namesake “X-Wing” everyone wanted them to be good and so far in 2.0 their decent. Both lore and game wise having large ships competitive grows the diversity in lists.

As to the Quadjumper I think my opinion is pretty clear, ( moreso the Gunrunner) specifically in its current form it’s to cheap, and because of that its broken and the ability to run as you suggest seven of them is an issue.

Compare 7 generic TIEs versus 7 generic Gunrunners let me know how that works out. They’re not good for the game in there current configuration, period.

9 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

Compare 7 generic TIEs versus 7 generic Gunrunners let me know how that works out. They’re not good for the game in there current configuration, period.

7 TIEs would be Howlrunner, Scourge, Mithel and four Obsidians. Pretty sure they would wipe the floor with 7 quads, all firing first with nearly full mods.

21 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

As to the Quadjumper I think my opinion is pretty clear, ( moreso the Gunrunner) specifically in its current form it’s to cheap, and because of that its broken and the ability to run as you suggest seven of them is an issue.

While everyone's opinion should be taken into account, the opinion of someone pushing for a Super TIE/D Defender to be added to the game with Vader as a pilot on a hard counter for such a ship is suspect in the extreme...

53 minutes ago, Okapi said:

7 TIEs would be Howlrunner, Scourge, Mithel and four Obsidians. Pretty sure they would wipe the floor with 7 quads, all firing first with nearly full mods.

I said generic as a direct correlation to a generic Gunrunner. Carry on.

i.e ~ 7 Academy TIEs (23 points)

1 hour ago, Okapi said:

7 TIEs would be Howlrunner, Scourge, Mithel and four Obsidians. Pretty sure they would wipe the floor with 7 quads, all firing first with nearly full mods.

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Total: 196

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Is closer to what the wolf is challenging you to come up with.

2 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

There are some large ships that should be apart of the meta at all times if possible. The 2.0 large ship was given in some cases to much of a correction but ships the likes of the Millennium Falcon and Slave 1 so always have a place in the game.

I don't mind YT-1300s being in the game, but make them support ships instead of flying fortresses.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Black Squadron Ace (26)
Predator (2)

Total: 196

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Is closer to what the wolf is challenging you to come up with.

Predator on 2 die primary seems pretty terrible tbh. Ruthless or Crack would be better.

Just now, impspy said:

Predator on 2 die primary seems pretty terrible tbh. Ruthless or Crack would be better.

Other than the single charge on Crack Shot and the need to preserve HP to chunk through the Gun Runners I agree with you on both. There are enough arcs floating around that Predator should proc often enough to make it worth the investment, and the challenge laid out was a 7 ship generic TIE list vs the Gun Runners. This fits that at 28 pts a pop, same as a Gun Runner swarm.

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I don't mind YT-1300s being in the game, but make them support ships instead of flying fortresses.

I understand what your saying so as (in thematic way) the Falcon supports the X-Wing etc. but when in proper arc, range then allow the bigger ships to allow the good flying reward. So is that done by changing them to two dice primary (see Falcon)? Is this idea a reduction of attack dice only or also stripping them of HP as well? If they become eventually mostly support then I’d assume keep the HP relatively the same.

5 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

I understand what your saying so as (in thematic way) the Falcon supports the X-Wing etc. but when in proper arc, range then allow the bigger ships to allow the good flying reward. So is that done by changing them to two dice primary (see Falcon)? Is this idea a reduction of attack dice only or also stripping them of HP as well? If they become eventually mostly support then I’d assume keep the HP relatively the same.

Two dice would be a good start. Yes, the Falcon has some pretty decent weaponry, but it's splitting that between two arcs.

1 hour ago, Cgriffith said:

I said generic as a direct correlation to a generic Gunrunner. Carry on.

i.e ~ 7 Academy TIEs (23 points)

Wow -a 39 point bid with I1 ships - any wonder you keep losing this match up.

16 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

@ForceM Just FYI, Guri is a she. An android or something similar but definitely she. All you youngsters not knowing your Shadows of the Empire. Get off my lawn... Grumblegrumble

12 hours ago, ForceM said:

I know. But technically it should be an IT then ?

11 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

I resent your organocentrist attitudes.

I believe sex robot is the technical term.

7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

While everyone's opinion should be taken into account, the opinion of someone pushing for a Super TIE/D Defender to be added to the game with Vader as a pilot on a hard counter for such a ship is suspect in the extreme...

And someone arguing against giving the dark lord a ride more fitting to his station should be shown to the nearest airlock. The difference is that I'm willing to pay the points that Vader in a Defender is worth, some here don't want to pay what tractor array is worth, they want it at 28 points, the cost of a mid tier TIE fighter.

8 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

There are some large ships that should be apart of the meta at all times if possible. The 2.0 large ship was given in some cases to much of a correction but ships the likes of the Millennium Falcon and Slave 1 so always have a place in the game. This is the same argument made about the games namesake “X-Wing” everyone wanted them to be good and so far in 2.0 their decent. Both lore and game wise having large ships competitive grows the diversity in lists.

As to the Quadjumper I think my opinion is pretty clear, ( moreso the Gunrunner) specifically in its current form it’s to cheap, and because of that its broken and the ability to run as you suggest seven of them is an issue.

Compare 7 generic TIEs versus 7 generic Gunrunners let me know how that works out. They’re not good for the game in there current configuration, period.

Well, apparently somebody took 7 Jakku Gunrunners to a decently sized store event, finished 3-1 in swiss, and then placed in top 4

Just sayin..

I like Jakku Gunrunners as they are now. I don't fear them, I think they're unique, fun to play and play against. Just my 5 cents

To be tractored before the maneuvre is like being pushed in robo rally. Every game with blind movement decisions needs more of that