Hello all. I have some questions on the Talon Roll maneuver. These have all come up in games of 2.0 I’ve played.

1. When executing a Talon Roll with another ship close to the end point. I have been told the maneuver is blocked if the maneuvering ship overlaps when placed with it’s side hash mark aligning the center line of the ruler (irregardless of if it would not overlap in one of the two othe possible end positions). I thought, similar to barrel roll, you have three choices of an end position for Talon Roll and the maneuver completes if you can place the ship in any of the three end points. The rules seem to read the later. Which is it?

2. How do you align the end point for a Talon Roll on a medium base, such as the Firespray? The middle choice is easy, align side hash mark to center line. The slightly fore or aft choices are not clear. Do you overlay a 1 straight template on the end of the turn template and measure like a barrel roll for a medium base? Do you align the side hash mark with the fore or aft edge of the template? Do you align the fore or aft edge of the base with the fore or aft edge of the template?

Thank you all for your insights!

1 is incorrect. Troll is only blocked if you can't place the ship in any of the three positions.

2: you get full movement out to the edges of the template as for a small base ship.

To generalize the description of Tallon Rolls and Barrel Rolls:

There are three possible positions, no matter the size of the ship base or the shape of the template.

• The first is the hashmark in the middle of the ship base aligned with the hashmark in the middle of the relevant movement template.
• The second and third are the hashmark in the middle of the ship base aligned with either edge of the relevant movement template.
  • With a large-base barrel roll, or with a small base barrel roll or tallon roll, this is geometrically equivalent to the edge of the template and the edge of the ship base.
  • Half of the large base is equal in length to the long-side of the 1-straight template, so between the midpoint hash and the base edge is the length of the template.
  • Half of the small base is equal in length to the short-side of any movement template, so between the midpoint hash and the base edge is the width of the template.

27 minutes ago, Tharcas said:

Do  you align the side hash mark  with the fore or aft edge of the  template  ?

Yes, this exactly.

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

• • Half of the large base is equal in length to the long-side of the 1-straight template, so between the midpoint hash and the base edge is the length of the template.
  • Half of the small base is equal in length to the short-side of any movement template, so between the midpoint hash and the base edge is the width of the template.

And half of the medium base is equal to nothing , which makes those barrel rolls and talon rolls look REALLY wonky.

(ok, technically, half of the medium base is equal to 3/4 of the long side, or 1-1/2 the short side, of a 1-straight template - but those aren't really measurements we can effectively use in game)

Thanks for the answers.

From BitterFig’s geometries and from reading the rules, it seems there is 1/4 of a small ship base wiggle room in either direction for any ship doing a Talon Roll. Per spaceinvader, you get 3 choices of end position any of which can complete the maneuver. However, it does not look like the rules align with a medium base ship measuring a T-roll out to the edge of its base aligned with edge of the template. The rules talk about aligning hash marks and templates, not base edges and templates.

emeraldbeacon is just funny! ? and true!

I think the rules could use a diagram of medium ship T-roll in a future update. A picture being worth about 1000 of this old stuff I’m writing!

EB is right, I'm not. I didn't check the rules.

2 hours ago, Tharcas said:

...The rules talk about aligning hash marks and templates, not base edges and templates.

For most instances, templates DO end up aligning with base edges, but that's more of a coincidence than anything else. Specifically, your centerline hash mark needs to align with the template's centerline, front, or back, when performing a barrel roll, or executing a talon roll. Example:

it's a very common misconception that you align anything to the edge of the base. it's all about the hash mark and the template, base size doesn't matter. it's only really relevant to medium bases when performing barrel rolls, though, since the templates are exactly the right size to align with the edge of the base when barrel rolling a small or medium ship.

as for bumping and fully executing a talon roll, as long as you can place the ship in any of the three legal positions, you can fully execute the maneuver. it doesn't matter if you cannot fit in the center.

7 hours ago, meffo said:

it's a very common misconception that you align anything to the edge of the base.

More like an artifact of " First Edition Thinking TM ."

8 hours ago, meffo said:

it's a very common misconception that you align anything to the edge of the base. it's all about the hash mark and the template, base size doesn't matter. it's only really relevant to medium bases when performing barrel rolls, though, since the templates are exactly the right size to align with the edge of the base when barrel rolling a small or medium ship.

as for bumping and fully executing a talon roll, as long as you can place the ship in any of the three legal positions, you can fully execute the maneuver. it doesn't matter if you cannot fit in the center.

Actually the edge of a medium base never aligns to the edge of the template when performing a barrel roll. Small bases come a lot closer to aligning but the measurement is so miniscule I have a feeling most people ignore the discrepancy and align the edges anyway.

indeed.

12 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

More like an artifact of " First Edition Thinking TM ."

I mean, no large base ships had Talon Rolls in 1e, specifically because the definitions of how barrel rolls worked would have made the effect insanely potent.

I wasn't playing at the time, but large base ships using the 1-straight the short-way was a rule changed part way through 1e : they originally used them the same way as small base ships--the long way. I hear it was pretty crazy to put Expert Handling on a Millennium Falcon...

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, no large base ships had Talon Rolls in 1e, specifically because the definitions of how barrel rolls worked would have made the effect insanely potent.

I wasn't playing at the time, but large base ships using the 1-straight the short-way was a changed rule: they originally used them the same way as small base ships--the long way. I hear it was pretty crazy to put Expert Handling on a Millennium Falcon...

no, large ships turned the template while barrel rolling in first edition as well. it was still insanely potent, though.

edit: oh, sorry, you meant they changed it during first edition! >_<