Okay, so besides my default "Don't listen to what people theorycraft about the game just play the game, if you go high on Air you'll be good in your own right people need to get over this idea "bad" is bad all the time"

@EternalKeeper roundabout made a great point - by default starting characters in L5R are basically samurai babies. You're supposed to be fresh out of gempukku (and not even done with it for the Beginner Game), and so you have basically no additional XP to spend. You're probably gonna be "bad" at a lot of stuff and very quickly with a little EXP round out. If your GM wants you to be a bit more rounded out, they can give you a bit of starting XP which would let you make some prelim buys on rings or skills so you can perform better.

I dunno if something that is only 2 sessions away is a hindrance.

Especially with my house rule that you can stack the initial skill points from your School in a single skill (up to the cap of 3)

2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

thats the thing, they HAVE to right away get composure.

so basically, starting with lot of Air is a drawback. a "hindrance".

Meanwhile a starting Doji Diplomat can have a TN 4 to be schemed against in an Intrigue (3 vigilance + air stance). Good luck gaining momentum against them. Most starting courtiers have absolutely no chance to keep up with them, the only thing they can do is try to have them unmask and claim "moral victory" I guess.

Yeah I've been making some test builds and for thematic reasons so far I'm almost always fairly low Air, and I always look at that Vigilance TN and am like "gosh that seems so small I feel concerned"

If you made them keep at least 2 dice with strife on it get that 1 momentum point, you have effectively erased the Composure difference. Anything beyond that, you made a profit.

2 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Meanwhile a starting Doji Diplomat can have a TN 4 to be schemed against in an Intrigue (3 vigilance + air stance). Good luck gaining momentum against them.

Void Opp for -1 TN (optional Void self-assist setup), Seize the Moment for +1k1, and have 1+ guys Assisting you. It is gonna be a one-shot-victory.

Assistance has been limited to basically "GM decides how many people can assist, usually 1, if at all", and you need 2 bonus successes per bonus momentum point. I think it was in response to one-shot setups like that in Intrigues.

Just now, AtoMaki said:

Void Opp for -1 TN (optional Void self-assist setup), Seize the Moment for +1k1, and have 1+ guys Assisting you. It is gonna be a one-shot-victory.

The Doji has access to all of this and will probably act first so they are still winning the race. Unless it is an Air/Fire Bayushi which is the most aggressive courtier build and is the one that can definitely go toe to toe with the Doji at character creation.

Just now, AtoMaki said:

Void Opp for -1 TN (optional Void self-assist setup), Seize the Moment for +1k1, and have 1+ guys Assisting you. It is gonna be a one-shot-victory.

And most people only have 1 Void at start. 2 at most, except for one single school. So you are very likely to just gain the Opp and progress momentum more slower than the Doji. And the Doji themselves can also have guys assisting (and are likely to have it, since well, they start with an attendant) and use Sieze the moment. That's a universal thing

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

The Doji has access to all of this and will probably act first so they are still winning the race. Unless it is an Air/Fire Bayushi which is the most aggressive courtier build and is the one that can definitely go toe to toe with the Doji at character creation.

your vigilance is 1 higher, in exchange for 6 composure.

if you have air three above earth. (4-1 or 5-2).

TN. higher. by. ONE.

edit: if your doji have

air 4, earth 1, water 4. thats composure: 10 vigilance 4

air 1, earth 4, water 4. thats composure: 16 vigilance 3

clear?

CLEAR ?

Just now, omnicrone said:

The Doji has access to all of this and will probably act first so they are still winning the race. Unless it is an Air/Fire Bayushi which is the most aggressive courtier build and is the one that can definitely go toe to toe with the Doji at character creation.

That build is nightmare. Keep Opportunities to add/discover Disadvantages during initiative while also sparing them to discover Demeanors [which is the #1 thing in Intrigues to uncover], then ride the free exploit train rerolling your dice into dice paradise.

2 minutes ago, EternalKeeper said:

And most people only have 1 Void at start. 2 at most, except for one single school. So you are very likely to just gain the Opp and progress momentum more slower than the Doji. And the Doji themselves can also have guys assisting (and are likely to have it, since well, they start with an attendant) and use Sieze the moment. That's a universal thing

I forgot about the attendant. They are amazing. Skilled assistance on court shenanigans, a huge nerd with scholar skills ready or a decent yojimbo, you can even get cheeky and have a Daidoji Harrier helping you with things

You... Can't have 4-1 unless your Void is 3. Why would you have bought it up like that?

Attendants get techniques as you level up, too.

Also, it's pretty easy for a Kakita (at least) to start with 8 Composure and 8 Endurance, by getting a 3-2-2-2-1 Statline

My point is that she is not too tough to crack. Yes, she can fire back the same way, but it kinda defeats the whole purpose of running for defense. That +1 TN won't matter a whole lot when the big guns show up. At this point Water is a better bet for her for Attendant shenanigans.

As for Vigilance, 3 Air 2 Water (or reverse) already gives you 3 Vigilance. Vigilance is (Air+Water)/2, round up. So A+W=3 gives you Vigilance 2, A+W=5 gives you Vigilance 3, A+W=7 gives you vigilance 4, and A+W=9 gives you Vigilance 5. And again, this skips you entire checks, meaning you effectively "gain" Composure that would be consumed on these checks. And again, by forcing opponents to potentially keep more dice, you are probably bridging the gap by both slowing their Momentum Points accumulation and making them burn more Strife to get the same result as you do.

Just now, EternalKeeper said:

Also, it's pretty easy for a Kakita (at least) to start with 8 Composure and 8 Endurance, by getting a 3-2-2-2-1 Statline

obviously, the less you have a split between Air and Earth, the better it is. all i'm saying is that you CAN dump stat Air but you CAN'T dump stat Earth.

9 minutes ago, EternalKeeper said:

Also, it's pretty easy for a Kakita (at least) to start with 8 Composure and 8 Endurance, by getting a 3-2-2-2-1 Statline

It is the "I wanna win the Topaz Championship" build. Otherwise, you are fresh out of genpuku kid, chill out, you'll be not fighting any important duels anytime soon. You'll be getting 8 to your stuff soon.

8 minutes ago, WHW said:

As for Vigilance, 3 Air 2 Water (or reverse) already gives you 3 Vigilance. Vigilance is (Air+Water)/2, round up. So A+W=3 gives you Vigilance 2, A+W=5 gives you Vigilance 3, A+W=7 gives you vigilance 4, and A+W=9 gives you Vigilance 5. And again, this skips you entire checks, meaning you effectively "gain" Composure that would be consumed on these checks. And again, by forcing opponents to potentially keep more dice, you are probably bridging the gap by both slowing their Momentum Points accumulation and making them burn more Strife to get the same result as you do.

The good Doji is 3/3 Water Air so they can stance dance between the two without losing potency. Besides, who needs Endurance? ?

Pretty sure you could dump Earth if you went for a social character focused on Air and Water, as they still get Composure while getting the most important social tools from Air (Demeanor detection, Disadvantage slapping, TN bloating).

7 minutes ago, WHW said:

Pretty sure you could dump Earth if you went for a social character focused on Air and Water, as they still get Composure while getting the most important social tools from Air (Demeanor detection, Disadvantage slapping, TN bloating).

that pretty expensive to focus that much on one thing. compared to a good bushi who can be "decent" at court with just air 2 but much more composure/endurance.

but yes. you are not wrong.

17 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

obviously, the less you have a split between Air and Earth, the better it is. all i'm saying is that you CAN dump stat Air but you CAN'T dump stat Earth.

You can dump stat Air if you are a Bushi, but not Earth, yeah.

Meanwhile it is the exact opposite for Courtiers, they can dump Earth, but not Air. I can't see a successful courtier without at least Air 3 down the line, while one can be very successful with Earth 1 even at Rank 2+ (though there are some good Earth Shuji you'll be missing out in the later ranks)

In the end the game is called Legend of the Five Rings. Having a dump ring is a bad idea, even for one dimensional one trick ponies it still is not that good. This was true in earlier editions as well.

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

You can dump stat Air if you are a Bushi, but not Earth, yeah.

Meanwhile it is the exact opposite for Courtiers, they can dump Earth, but not Air. I can't see a successful courtier without at least Air 3 down the line, while one can be very successful with Earth 1 even at Rank 2+ (though there are some good Earth Shuji you'll be missing out in the later ranks)

In the end the game is called Legend of the Five Rings. Having a dump ring is a bad idea, even for one dimensional one trick ponies it still is not that good. This was true in earlier editions as well.

yeah overall a balanced approach with only 1 higher ring is probably generally best.

as long as that one higher ring is not void or air.

but a "dump" ring, is not a great idea. air is the easiest to have as dump ring, but still not a good idea, granted.

Highest Air Ring works fine. Highest Void has problems because there isn't enough Void Techniques at lower Ranks to make it a viable primary One Ring.
Again, the most impactful jump for Composure and Endurance is 4-->6. 6-->8 is still almost +50%, but anything after that is just diminishing returns for increasing costs.

Void might be the single best Ring in the entire game: awesome Approaches, very good Opps, Void Points, and high synergy with the other Rings in case you need something else. And of course it is the go-to Ring for every Ritual and the fairly powerful Founding Kami Techs.