What strategies and tools are you using to beat Scum swarms?

This could typically be Drea Swarm (Drea + 3x Jakku + 2x Z-95 + L337), but could be also other variants.

But typically they all include 5 or more ships, and at least 1 or more Jakku Gunrunners.

It seems that these squadrons walk all over Aces lists based on the sheer abusiveness of the undercosted Jakku's tractor beams.

There is realistically no way how Aces can completely avoid the tractors for the whole game, while actually contributing to the combat (especially if the tractors are backed by coordinate from the shuttle).

And just one bad round with tractor beam tokens is usually enough to get the Ace killed.

Even Trajectory Simulated Proton Bombs don't seem to be enough to break their necks, because Drea is different from Howlrunner and the swarm can actually maneuver quite wide and spreaded. And all the ships have very high health.

We just had quite a sizable tournament with many good international players, and the top 8 was dominated by swarm lists. Which makes me a bit sad as an Ace player.

So what lists did you have the most luck with against swarms?

5 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

We just had quite a sizable tournament with many good international players, and the top 8  was dominated by swarm lists. Which makes me a bit sad as an Ace player.

Which tournament was this? I’d love to see the players and lists

3 minutes ago, dolfiejay said:

Which tournament was this? I’d love to see the players and lists

Slovak Nationals. The lists are not yet published, but they should appear on List Fortress quite soon.

From the top of my head the top 8 lists were as follows:

- Drea swarm (1st place)

- Norra / U-wing / Thane / Blount (2nd place)

- Talonbane / Palob / Quinn Jast / L337 / Jakku

- Sloan swarm with 1x Phantom and 6x Tie Fighters

- 2x Reaper + 1x Punisher + Soontir

- Boba / 4-Lom / L337 / Jakku

- Fenn / Teroch / 4-Lom

- Guri / 4-Lom / ??

That's hardly a lot of swarm.

Quadjumpers are really popular locally and I've been using ships that reposition in the system phase as a counter - Deathrain and Whisper mostly. Deathrain in particular has a lot of good tools to avoid being tractored, remove obstacles and punish slow moving quadjumpers.

3/8 is enough to need a playbook for. A valid tactic is to nuke one and run. Swarms take a lot of time to plot and move so they don’t get many turns to burn you down, so killing one and running can be good if dull.

9 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

That's hardly a lot of swarm.

Well, there are 3 full swarms and additional 3 jousting lists with 4 ships, which I would call "mini-swarms" in my book. Your definitions may vary..

Anyways only 2 of the lists there in top 8 could be called "Aces" lists.

And there were LOTS of Aces lists in the tournament - it's just they didn't do very well against mass of ships (especially with tractor beams).

I think FFG kind of dropped the ball on Aces with the initial costing of 2.0. Waaay too many cheap generics and Ace murdering abilities - but that is for another discussion..

The trick to running any ace list is to identify what will harm you the most and delete it, then move down the list. You need to maneuver well in order to do so, and this is where the tugboat shines as it messes with approach. So, this really boils down to turn 0. Create clear lanes to race down in order to target the tugboat and then follow the rest of your attack plan.

One thing to also keep in mind, and this somewhat addresses your concern about ace values vs generics, is that 2.0 has blurred the lines for pilots. Aces are not really designed to work unsupported. 2.0 actually encourages building balanced squads. The days of 3 ace lists are over, at least that's how it seems so far. You really need something backing the aces up. That said, I'm curious what kind of ace lists weren't doing well.

15 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

The trick to running any ace list is to identify what will harm you the most and delete it, then move down the list. You need to maneuver well in order to do so, and this is where the tugboat shines as it messes with approach. So, this really boils down to turn 0. Create clear lanes to race down in order to target the tugboat and then follow the rest of your attack plan.

One thing to also keep in mind, and this somewhat addresses your concern about ace values vs generics, is that 2.0 has blurred the lines for pilots. Aces are not really designed to work unsupported. 2.0 actually encourages building balanced squads. The days of 3 ace lists are over, at least that's how it seems so far. You really need something backing the aces up. That said, I'm curious what kind of ace lists weren't doing well.

Thanks for the insights.

Regarding the Aces lists not doing well - there was a lot of 3 ship lists on the bottom tables featuring Whisper, Redline, Soontir, Guri, Luke, etc.

A couple of them manage to get into the top, but most of them did not.

It really seems to me that it's not worth investing points into arc-dodging Ace ships in a swarmy meta. It's too high risk, low reward..

A couple generics instead of the Ace look like much safer option, and can usually contribute much more into the fight.

Which is a bit worrying, because if jousting lists are so dominating I think it makes for a much more boring game..

20 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Thanks for the insights.

Regarding the Aces lists not doing well - there was a lot of 3 ship lists on the bottom tables featuring Whisper, Redline, Soontir, Guri, Luke, etc.

A couple of them manage to get into the top, but most of them did not.

It really seems to me that it's not worth investing points into arc-dodging Ace ships in a swarmy meta. It's too high risk, low reward..

A couple generics instead of the Ace look like much safer option, and can usually contribute much more into the fight.

Which is a bit worrying, because if jousting lists are so dominating I think it makes for a much more boring game..

Ace lists - or rather, Aces in general - are definitely still good in 2.0. They are just a little more difficult to use. No more infinite token stacks and so on just means they must be played more carefully. If you do, they reward you. If you fail, you get punished. Much lower floor, without a definitively higher ceiling. But practice to reach that ceiling and you will notice the height over a generic.

@Bad Idea Comics hits the nail on the head, I think. Triple Aces are not so much a good idea any longer. But an Ace with support is actually very good. I'm not generally a Rebels guys, but I've been exploring Luke + Z95's and a support ship, and the mix can be very strong. There's a lot of flexibility built in to such a list, but you have to fly it carefully to exploit that strength. Aces, I think, excel at the endgame; fly them to get them there.

As for your comment about the bottom tables: I think they can generally be discounted in any discussion of any given meta. Bottom tables of a tournament - especially a large, competitive tournament - generally reflect player skill and not listbuilding flaws. And I can say this with authority, having populated those tables a fair few times.

4 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

Ace lists - or rather, Aces in general - are definitely still good in 2.0. They are just a little more difficult to use. No more infinite token stacks and so on just means they must be played more carefully. If you do, they reward you. If you fail, you get punished. Much lower floor, without a definitively higher ceiling. But practice to reach that ceiling and you will notice the height over a generic.

@Bad Idea Comics hits the nail on the head, I think. Triple Aces are not so much a good idea any longer. But an Ace with support is actually very good. I'm not generally a Rebels guys, but I've been exploring Luke + Z95's and a support ship, and the mix can be very strong. There's a lot of flexibility built in to such a list, but you have to fly it carefully to exploit that strength. Aces, I think, excel at the endgame; fly them to get them there.

As for your comment about the bottom tables: I think they can generally be discounted in any discussion of any given meta. Bottom tables of a tournament - especially a large, competitive tournament - generally reflect player skill and not listbuilding flaws. And I can say this with authority, having populated those tables a fair few times.

Thanks for the reply.

While I would agree with your points in vaccuum, the context of my initial post was a bit different.

Against Swarmy lists, you will probably finish on time, and therefore not even reach the end game, because your Ace(s) contribute so little into the fight - especially if you're playing it more carefully and surrendering some your shots in order to not get shot.

Having a combined list of Ace + mini swarm sounds interesting, but I'm affraid that the mini-swarm part could get obliterated in the joust against the opponent's squad, which is consisting of 100% jousters (since you're jousting with let's say 130 points against opponent's 200 points).

So I think in games against 3-4 ship lists, the Aces can still shine, but I don't really see them being worth the points against swarmy lists - especially if the swarms are playing some of the "hard counters"..

Also, what I had in mind was actually more like "middle tables", which means people who are just outside top 16, and not the very bottom tables.

Anyways the initial post was primarily about finding specific tools against Drea swarm and other Jakku swarms, and not about general discussions on Aces in 2nd edition.

So if you have some specific experiences regarding Drea swarms, I would be very grateful if you can share them.

If your experience is that Aces are great against Drea / Jakku swarms, and I would love to hear about that, too..

Jakku Gunner is 5 health behind 2 greens. It's easy to erase one in initial engagement.

Then it is about maneuvering: they have max 3 forward so they cannot close the gap outside r3 to r1 to utilize tractor action in single move. You need to zoom in to r1 and they are blocked. Of course in that case coordinate can kick in but jakku gunrunners move before any other coordinating ship in Scum faction, so if they are blocked: no tractor. Only one configuration is flexible: L3-37 and Unkar Plutt both moving in Ini2 ( I fly this setup )

It's not easy, but who said it supposed to be? Gunrunners are made to be Ace hunters. Jousters beat swarms, Aces beats Jousters, Swarms beats Aces - everything is fine

I don't think that data from this single tournament (although great one! I had lot of fun) can be decisive.

What makes the gunrunner so good?

wait what the heck. So you just have to move into R1 during your movement and then do an action to tractor something automatically? for 28 points? 14pts in 1.0?? WHAT THE FRIG

WHAT, for 6 more points you get 1 more health than the Z and a very impressive ability and better dial and better slots??

What goes on Drea? Proton Torp? Or something else?

I see her mostly with just a dorsal turret, to keep her cheep. So that 2 Binary Z95, 3 Tugboats and L3-37 fit with her in one list.

The solution is simple: Ban Poland.

On a serious note. Here is the overview for top 8 and info on other swarms in the tourney + the players record
http://listfortress.com/tournaments/89

4-1 (Sloane Whisper + 6 ties) -> eliminated in top 8 by Soontir, Redline and double Reaper.
3-2 (Drea Swarm) -> The Champ
3-2 (Sloane Whisper + 6 ties) - 13
3-2 (Sloane Whisper + 4 Strikers) - 10
1-4 (Sloane Sigma Ace + 6 ties) - 28

Trajectory Simulator Bombs are the answer. I've been flying my own Drea swarm and that's the one thing that gives me trouble.

1. Bring debris and smallest ones you can.

2. Opponent is probably bringing the biggest rocks possible. Stick them in the corners and out of your way.

3. From there it's just range control management. Both on opponent and the obstacles near you. Try not to end a move near an obstacle. If you are, when you set your dial be mindful you may not be where you started before revealing.

If you are running redline + double ace you stand a very good chance of nuking 1 per turn for the fist two engagements.

10 minutes ago, viedit said:

2. Opponent is probably bringing the biggest rocks possible. Stick them in the corners and out of your way.

Winner of Slovak Natio had Tobias Beckett in the list

7 hours ago, Oldpara said:

Jakku Gunner is 5 health behind 2 greens. It's easy to erase one in initial engagement.

It is severely undercosted. Penalizing opponents for what this game tries and has you do get to Range 1. Hopefully in January every Tugboat sees a steep point increase. They’re NPE in many aspects of game play. Jumpmaster 2.0 .... FFG made a huge mistake on it.

Gunrunners are a threat to expensive small base aces, but they suffer horribly to multiple cheap mid tier aces and low to mid imitative generics. The cheapest TIE Bombers, StarVipers, X-Wings and Y-Wings are all I2, have repositioning, and can hit Gunrunners hard. Also, if the meta has a really strong I1, and people bring value I2s to counter them, that means it might be worth considering generic veterans like I3 A-Wings, TIE Fighters, v1s and Strikers, and I4 Interceptors and Fangs.

15 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Gunrunners are a threat to expensive small base aces, but they suffer horribly to multiple cheap mid tier aces and low to mid imitative generics.

So .... they’re basically NPE for any faction, player or ship that is initiative 2 or higher exactly how many “aces” are 2 or lower?… I’ll wait for a response. This game now has limited mod opportunities, is supposed to reward flying, and part of that is positioning yourself into range 1 for those extra dice modified shots.

Gunrunners don’t allow that in fact they’re NPE because of it. When I can’t take an ace because of a 28 point ships ability to tractor it and eliminate it with positioning or flying something is wrong. Very much so.