“Gambling is the wagerin  g of money or something of value (referred to as  "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome, with the primary intent of winning money or material goods.”

You proved my point right there! There is not an uncertain outcome. I know what I’m getting when I buy Discover and KeyForge. I’m getting a complete game that I can play with other people. I’m getting exactly the product I paid for and I am not winning anything. NOT GAMBLING.

53 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

If you would like to continue the conversation with me, I suggest that you have a more respectful tone.

I find it humorous that you are allowed your condescending tone while chiding others for it. This was not a conversation as that implies there was genuine effort to understand the other side. I’m breaking up with you first. Nice chat, best of luck, I’m pretty sure based on pre-order sales at my FLGS alone you are not winning this one. Good day.

2 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

X-Wing, Armada, and Legion do not require players to gamble in order to purchase product. Its curious you included SW Destiny as that game DOES require gambling loot boxes to purchase product. So I certainly have complaints about SW Destiny.

So you are redefining the definition of gambling?

1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

the primary intent of winning money or material goods.

Is there money inside some KeyForge boxes?

1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

1 hour ago, Baer said:

Please explain me this with your logic OP :

Do you consider the Living Card Games like L5R and AGoT as gambling? You go to a tournament, pay your entry fee and play with cards where the outcome is based on luck as luck defines which card you draw when. All this is so you can win some tournament prices which can be the equivalent of money, e.g. getting the flight to the US for winning nationals corresponds to ~1000 $ to me. Is this also then gambling? If not, how do you see the difference to poker?

Have you read my previous quote?

2 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

As for prizes for competitions, there are very specific rules regarding prizes for competitions. Every country has their own laws regarding this so I cannot speak to each country. This is the case in sports, esports, card gaming, and even board gaming. Its commonly accepted that winning prizes in sporting events, e-sports, card gaming, and board gaming is not considered gambling. However, if the prizes are winning money, then the laws are different. I believe in the USA, minors under the age of 16 cannot participate in competitions where money is the prize (like in the Fortnite pro-series). I don't know if the law deems this activity as gambling, that is something that you are welcome to research and let us know.

17 minutes ago, Saibrock said:

Is there money inside some KeyForge boxes?

17 minutes ago, Saibrock said:

2 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

the primary intent of winning money or material goods.

Material goods is not money.

1 hour ago, TheSpitfired said:

You proved my point right there! There is not an uncertain outcome. I know what I’m getting when I buy Discover and KeyForge. I’m getting a complete game that I can play with other people. I’m getting exactly the product I paid for and I am not winning anything. NOT GAMBLING.

Incorrect. You do not know the contents of the box. And that is what makes it gambling. Its irrelevant that the game functions completely or not.

2 hours ago, Baer said:

Please stop calling your blog entries sources, this hurts my feelings as a scientist.

This is a forum and my use of the word 'source' is correct as I am attributing the quotes to authors other than myself.

However, one of the articles that I posted DOES have peer-reviewed sources: http://knowtheodds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NYCPG_ebook_YouthGambling_052114.pdf . Scientist should do their research before posting unsubstantiated claims.

Quote

References Welte, John, et al. “The Prevalence of Problem Gambling Among U.S. Adolescents and Young Adults: Results from a National Survey” Springer Science+Business Media, LLC. December 21, 2007. “The Teen Brain: Still Under Construction.” National Institute for Mental Health. http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-still-under-construction/ index.shtml Spinks, Sarah. “One Reason Teens Respond Differently to the World: Immature Brain Circuitry” PBS. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/work/onereason.html “The Teen Brain: Behavior, Problem Solving, and Decision Making” Facts for Families, American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry. 2011. http://www.aacap.org/aacap/Families_and_Youth/Facts_for_Families/Facts_for_ Families_Pages/The_Teen_Brain_Behavior_Problem_Solving_and_Decision_ Making_95.aspx “Risk Factors for Problem Gambling Among Youth.” http://www.preventionlane.org/youth-risk-factors Bloom, Adi. “Behaviour - Online games can ‘hook’ children into gambling” TES magazine, January 10, 2014. http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6389543 Desai, Rani, et al.“Gambling Behavior among High School Students in the State of Connecticut: A Report Delivered to CT Department of Mental Health and Addiction Services and CT Department of Education” May 15, 2007. “College Gambling Facts and Statistics” National Council on Problem Gambling. http://www.ncpgambling.org/files/NPGAWcollegefactsheet.pdf

2 hours ago, Amanal said:

I pay $10 for a deck of cards, each has a fixed cost to make so each deck costs the same. I do not "win" anything.

While the sealed deck costs the same, the value of the decks will be different. I would be very surprised if you can't make profit with some decks.

Even from the previous thread, Lace still has not answered my question:

If such a "gambling" game exists, and others enjoy it, does it negatively impact you at all? You can choose not to pay, you can choose not to play. You won't have to "gamble" anything, so why are you so adamant in ruining other players' fun?

33 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

This is a forum and my use of the word 'source' is correct as I am attributing the quotes to authors other than myself.

However, one of the articles that I posted DOES have peer-reviewed sources: http://knowtheodds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NYCPG_ebook_YouthGambling_052114.pdf . Scientist should do their research before posting unsubstantiated claims.

This is actually the only reference you have not labeled as a source but just given the links. Everything is as I said for those things you labeled as "source". Please start reading your own post before stating false claims. Those things are references and not sources.

56 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Have you read my previous quote?

Yes and it does not answer my question. Have you read my question?

42 minutes ago, RedMageStatscowski said:

Even from the previous thread, Lace still has not answered my question:

If such a "gambling" game exists, and others enjoy it, does it negatively impact you at all? You can choose not to pay, you can choose not to play. You won't have to "gamble" anything, so why are you so adamant in ruining other players' fun?

While it certainly is on a different level, you could make a similar argument about slot machines. Especially children are vulnerable to practices that exploit the stimulation of the brain with gratification and rewards.

I personally don't think that Keyforge is marketed towards children and Keyforge also seems rather harmless compared to Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon TCG. While I think that Lace Jetstreamer 's arguments are sound against the TCG market, I don't think that mustering out Keyforge, that tries to avoid some of the exploitative practices is a good idea. The rarity in Keyforge is basically meaningless, there are no foil cards and the artwork doesn't seem like something that caters to children.

On 11/4/2018 at 9:38 AM, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Preface

My original post was deleted because FFG knows the contents of the original thread to be factual. They do not want to take proper responsibility for the products they are selling especially for minors and how they are responsible for introducing minors into gambling.

Loot Box / Blind Box

KeyForge uses blind box / loot box mechanics in order to sell the game. Why is the main game mechanic wrapped so tightly around the loot box? The reason is obvious, motivating players to purchase more and more loot boxes.

Source 1

Source 2

You may agree that physical games use gambling loot boxes in order to sell product. I do not think developers should be prevented from creating games that use this monetization strategy; however, the game should be regulated just like any other gambling activity. That includes NOT ALLOWING the game to be marketed to non-adults. The game should also have clear warnings that it uses GAMBLING as its primary source of monetization.

Source 2

The above quote is from a gambling industry expert who rightfully identifies loot boxes and card packs as GAMBLING.

Health Effects

For those interested in why exposing gambling to children is harmful to their development, please read this article (has citations). Exposing non-adults to gambling in their childhood has potential problems that go well into their adult hood. Most of the people on this forum have been exposed to gambling through various means like trading cards during their childhood and those people can't even acknowledge that loot boxes and blind boxes are actually gambling. They are gambling addicted and apart of being addicted is the inability to admit to one's gambling problems like purchasing loot boxes / blind boxes.

http://knowtheodds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NYCPG_ebook_YouthGambling_052114.pdf

Customer First

Many have already argued that making the entire deck a loot box is somehow more customer friendly then selling booster packs. I think this is a flawed statement. The card gaming industry ALREADY has customer friendly deck building formats. One of the game companies is White Wizard Games and they produce Star Realms , Hero Realms , and Epic Card Game .

I own Star Realms and have played hero realms. I really enjoy this type of deck building game. The important part is that there is ZERO randomness when purchasing card packs or the starter deck. All the cards are 100% identified on each card pack. Its different to the keyforge style of deck building but that is where Epic Card Game comes in.

The Fix

FFG could easily fix the problem while still providing a 'unique' experience. All FFG needs to do is expose the QR code on the box so that players can SCAN the contents before making a purchase. Or they could list all of the names of the cards and their quantity on the back of the box. Or they could have a flip out that shows the contents. By allowing the contents of the box to be known before purchase, the product would no longer fall under gambling laws and would be fine. For the people who don't want to know the contents, they could easily just not look and buy the first one off the shelf.

Of course, FFG and stores would have a problem and that is the question of what to do with all the unwanted underpowered stock. The game itself has the concept of chains which is a built in mechanic to deal with over powered decks. FFG knows there will be over powered combinations and people will inherently seek those out on their purchases. So its not in FFG's best interest to be consumer friendly since the whole point of the product line is to sell as many as possible. Anyways, there is always a solution for a company that is looking to be consumer friendly but FFG/Asmodee is looking to maximise their profits at the expense of the players.

Summary

We should call out FFG now for their irresponsible business practices before Legislation catches up (which it will in the next few years). Keyforge to me is ultimately a failed product BECAUSE its main mechanic is so tightly tied to the loot box. I certainly won't be purchasing their product and will warn others of this dishonest and harmful business practice of selling loot boxes to non-adults.

Did the doctor impose you to buy KeyForge?

Here we go again. I bet (!) this time this thread wont last longer than a week

Seeing as this topic has been discussed thoroughly and discussion is proving more combative than thoughtful, the thread is now locked.