Hi guys.

I’m gonna be starting a new campaign soon, and in said campaign (which is a reimagining of Episode VII) the Force will be much more potent than it has been in the past.

I’m looking for ideas as to how to best represent this mechanically in the game.

Here’s what I have so far. Esther...:

- Allow players to buy an extra Force Rating for each one they purchase—with a set cost of 25xp.

- Give a 5xp discount on all Force powers and upgrades.

- Have them be able to use light or Dark side points without having to spend a Destiny Point (they would still suffer strain and perhaps conflict)

These are just ideas in their initial stage and I would gladly welcome any feedback or input.

PS: Yes, I am aware that it will unbalance the game, but all the PCs will be Force-users so it’s not a problem.

Why not keep the rules as they are and instead step up descriptions of what the characters do?

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Why not keep the rules as they are and instead step up descriptions of what the characters do?

That could work, but the relatively high failure rate of a FR1 is not really in the spirit of the campaign we’re trying to make.

I’m really looking for alternatives to the RAW here :)

So if you're looking to ramp up the effectiveness of Force powers, here's a couple things you can do.

First one, which you've already cited, is drop the Destiny Point requirement to use pips of the opposite Force alignment, such as light side PCs (which is the default) being able to use those dark pips but only suffer strain and conflict. Some players might still be reticent to use those dark pips due to the negative associations that "calling on the dark side" has in Star Wars lore, especially if your players have experience with Force users in the prior Star Wars RPGs were using the dark side automatically equated to doing something bad.

Second one, and this is from the EotE Beta, is to drop the FP costs of activating upgrades, so that all the PC needs to do to use those upgrades is purchase them with XP. Given how brutally powerful this could get with the EotE Beta (which only had Influence, Sense, and Move) that certainly will give Force powers an "unleashed" feel as you'd generally only need a single Force point to activate various effects. Be cautious with this one, as it makes powers like Influence and Move incredibly powerful. Also, you'll need to consider if upgrades can be activated multiple times or not; I'd suggest that while the first activation of an upgrade doesn't require a FP under this house rule, subsequent activations will.

Next up, simply give all the PCs the Mentor benefit when purchasing basic Force powers, be it at character creation or afterwards. This will make it cheaper for PCs to pick up at least basic proficiency in a number of different Force effects. I'd be a bit leery about applying that same discount to upgrades, or at the very least establish that the cost can't be reduced to less than 5XP.

Last one (and I don't recommend using this with the second item unless you really want to ramp up the effectiveness of Force powers to the point of being game-breakers) is to simply let all the Force user PCs begin with Force Rating 2. Having FR2 by itself overcomes a lot of the early difficulties that F&D characters have with getting their powers to work, as they're more likely to come up with two light side pips, enabling them to activate a basic power and an upgrade.

Now these all come with the caveat that if there's any non-F&D PCs in your party, or F&D PCs that opt not to overly focus on Force powers, then they're going to wind up being overshadowed pretty quickly in comparison to those PCs that do focus on Force power usage. Some players are okay with this, but most players will tend to get upset if their characters are reduced to what amounts to a supporting role in what's supposed to be an ensemble piece.

Oh, one other possible approach that one might employ to give Force users more of a boost (this one courtesy of a GM friend who used it for her F&D game):

Change the rules on committing Force dice so that even though the dice are committed, you can still roll them to activate Force powers/talents. Now, you'd still be capped by your Force Rating as to how many Commit effects you can have active, so you can't have multiple Commit effects if you've only got FR 1, and each Commit requires a separate action as per the rules on activating a Force power.

As an example, a PC has the Sense power with the Control Upgrades for defense and attack rolls, the Move power, the Seek power with Control Upgrade to upgrade Perception and Vigilance checks, and a Force Rating of 2. Under this house rule, the PC could commit one if their two Force dice to Sense's defense Control Upgrade and the other to Seek's Control Upgrade, and still have two Force dice to roll if they later want to use the Move power to hurl a bad guy into a wall, as opposed to the RAW where by committing both Force dice, they'd have zero Force dice available to use for a Move power check, and thus couldn't use Move until they uncommitted at least one of those Force dice.

As a player in the game where this house rule was used, I will admit that it does broaden the capabilities of PCs that are combat focused, as they are free to commit their one Force die to something like Sense for the defense Control upgrade or Force Protection or Healing Trance and still have the option of doing other Force things. It certainly does mean the Jedi wannabes (i.e. those PCs that started out with one of the Lightsaber Form specs) are going to be a lot more flexible while still having a good defense via Sense's defensive Control Upgrade as they can use other powers such as Move and Enhance as needed.

I'm not sure I'm going to carry this over into my own games, and I wouldn't suggest combining this with options to let the PCs begin play with a Force Rating greater than one or not requiring Force points to activate Force power upgrades unless you really want to go over-the-top with how effective/powerful the Force users can be in your games.

On 11/3/2018 at 6:55 PM, MasterKazur said:

- Allow players to buy an extra Force Rating for each one they purchase—with a set cost of 25xp.

That's going to give them a high FR really ,REALLY quickly. Which is fine, I get that is the whole point in your campaign, but I think you really need to actually consider this rapid escalation of scale, because it means you are going to be constantly increasing difficulty to keep up. Not a criticism, more just a warning to you for what you should be prepared for as the GM.

On 11/3/2018 at 6:55 PM, MasterKazur said:

- Give a 5xp discount on all Force powers and upgrades.

Eh, again, this means they will become powerful very fast, so see point number one above. Personally I don't know if this discount is really necessary, as it depends on how much XP you plan on dishing out every session. I suspect you are going to be very liberal with XP awards per session, so the 5 point discount might not really be needed. It will speed things up sure, but might be unnecessary.

On 11/3/2018 at 6:55 PM, MasterKazur said:

- Have them be able to use light or Dark side points without having to spend a Destiny Point (they would still suffer strain and perhaps conflict)

This is close to my own house rule, though I would still require them to spend a DP if they are a Dark Sider, trying to use Light Side pips. That's more to reflect the struggle to tap into the Light, after falling. And if they are trying to play out a redemption arc, it should be a struggle, and having that limitation (I think), is a good mechanical way to help reflect that struggle.

I do not however, think it should be required to spend a DP if you are Light Sider, trying to use Dark Side pips. Mostly because I think removing that limitation actually is more thematically fitting, as it makes the Dark Side "quicker, easier, more seductive." Come on player, why don't you just use those Dark pips this time? You don't have to spend any other type of group resource....you just have to take a little strain and Conflict...and those never hurt anybody did they? heheheheheh..... It's a great way to actually tempt players.

Keep in mind, that buying Force Upgrades, makes them WAAAAAAY more efficient with the Force Pips they spend. So if you are powering them up this fast, be ready for them to start pulling off massive things, very quickly. Force Rating = More Pips to play with per roll, Upgrades = More Utility/Power with those Pips.

They will be able to trigger multiple upgrades, which, if upgraded several ranks, will allow for insane scales of Force manipulation. Again, I get that's the point, you're going for an Unleashed themed setting. But just be prepared if they say they want to yank a Star Destroyer out of orbit, that you have actually considered the implications of said action

Also, I would recommend you House Rule an additional upgrade for pretty much all the powers, Move especially, for Planetary Range scale. The only published power (that I can recall), that allows you to change from a Personal scale to Planetary, is the Battle Meditation power. It's a 20xp upgrade, at the bottom of the tree. And if you are going to be doing Unleash, I think, to accurately replicate what he was doing, adding that to justify the "I pull it out of orbit" iconic action of the gameline. If they are going to be powering up as quickly as it seems, it will hardly be a hindrance, and it will allow for a mechanical reason for them pulling off something, while also allowing you to manage it to some degree. "Ok, so nobody has bought the Planetary scale upgrade...yet, so I don't have to worry about that for now" kind of thing. Just something for the back of your mind.

Otherwise, yeah, have at it. May these titans of Force power shake the very foundations of the galaxy.

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:55 PM, MasterKazur said:

Allow players to buy an extra Force Rating for each one they purchase—with a set cost of 25xp.

I'll echo the others here. If you want to do this, run the numbers first and find out where your players are planning on going. Make sure it'll go the way you think. Increasing FR has a way of getting out of hand and this is the sort of thing that once it's done, you can't undo it.

Also take a look at your intent. I've talked with people that gave FR rating boosts, when all they really needed was a few extra XP early on for more force powers/talents.

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:55 PM, MasterKazur said:

- Give a 5xp discount on all Force powers and upgrades.

Don't push the players, and discounts get weird (does the 5 XP discount mean this 5 XP upgrade is now free?)

Better option: Just award 5 more XP per session than you planned. Let the players build their character the way they want.

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:55 PM, MasterKazur said:

Have them be able to use light or Dark side points without having to spend a Destiny Point (they would still suffer strain and perhaps conflict)

Honestly, better to keep the D-points and ditch conflict than keep conflict and ditch d-points. Besides you're the GM, you decide when to flip a dark d-point and what it does, so if you're doing your job the players will have plenty of d-points to work with.

Wow, thanks for the great advice, Ferret, Morningfire, and Ghost!

Really useful stuff and good points. I think the idea of allowing the committed dice to still be available in the force pool is exceptionally good.

I’m thinking of using this MAYBE in combination with the “no DP for using dark side points” idea.

I feel this will accurately simulate the awakening/unleashing of the Force in the campaign.

Thanks again, guys!

8 minutes ago, MasterKazur said:

Wow, thanks for the great advice, Ferret, Morningfire, and Ghost!

Really useful stuff and good points. I think the idea of allowing the committed dice to still be available in the force pool is exceptionally good.

I’m thinking of using this MAYBE in combination with the “no DP for using dark side points” idea.

I feel this will accurately simulate the awakening/unleashing of the Force in the campaign.

Thanks again, guys!

Np, one thing to also consider, is to make sure your NPC's are on par with these PC's too, or at least reasonably close. A common problem with scaling up the power in gaming, is that the players sometimes have blinders on about how far this change will go. For example none of them might actually consider that being able to pick up a Star Destroyer and hurl it at an enemy base....might be an idea that one of their enemies employ when dealing with THEM. The power cuts both ways as they might say, so be prepared for some pushback if you are using the same toys you gave them, when building your NPC's.

Also, one thing to also consider, if you are trying to still put some kind of restrictions on the level of insanity, is for things like using Move on massive objects. Again, going back to the Unleashed Star Destroyer scene, if you recall, that Move effect, wasn't a single action. It was an extended duration attempt, that left him very prone to enemy fire. If you are worried about them just answering all problems with Giant Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies, I would suggest implementing a few limitations, specifically for Move, but you might find they are useful for others as well.

1. Moving big objects (Silhouette 6+ would probably be a good benchmark), require an extended action to sustain it. These are objects that are literally kilometers long, something that big, takes time to Move through space. And since they are so big, the likelihood of being close enough to Move them with Personal range, without standing on the freaking thing is very very slim. They are moving massive objects, from very far away, and that's not an instant action. So, extended action. They can sustain the effects of the Move, if you want to have them commit the die used, that's fine, but I personally just say "you are still pulling with the Force, that's your action, just like it was when you started, because you are still moving that thing". Which will leave them open to attacks, as they stand there, focusing on the Move action (like Starkiller, or Yoda in Empire moving the X-Wing. Both examples, it took them what would be several turns of time, and was something that took all their focus)

2. Each turn costs some Strain (how much is up to you. My suggestion is Strain/Turn = Silhouette of Object, but it will lead to people passing out really quick for massive objects). Again, this is meant as something of a governor on completely insane Move combat. If you use this, things like Sil 6+ objects, will probably only be Moveable for 1-3 rounds at best, depending on the Strain threshold of the PC. Given you guys are actively going for "Go Big or Go Home" style, this might be excessive, but at least SOME strain cost for the extended action, I think, is reasonable. Yoda was very tired after moving that X-Wing, so it's not unrealistic to assume this was due to a Strain cost per turn.

These rules are mostly meant for Move, as stated above, but it's something to keep in mind if you find some other powers become insanely OP once you take all the brakes off of the Force system. They are a pretty quick and easy way to limit the efficacy of a power, without needing a massive rework, or lots of mental juggling. Strain/Turn is quick to calculate, and puts a pretty hard cap for most PC's on how long they can sustain something before exhausting themselves.

For my Force and Destiny group, I give out a second category of XP that can only be spent on Force powers. We only play once every month or two, so I'm not worried about liberally dishing out XP. They usually get 20-25 XP with an additional 10 "Force" XP on top. They can use their "standard" XP for Force powers if they so choose, but the Force XP is for powers only.

I probably wouldn't allow buying a bonus Force rating every time they unlock the talent, but granting everyone FR2 at character creation will immediately jump them up to viable Force users off the bat.

I always give my Force user players the option of taking double Conflict in lieu of flipping the Destiny point to convert pips. This is especially effective for my mixed group with two Force users who don't want to use up the group resource and like toeing the line of the Dark Side.

To add to the list of potential options, another notion that's been floated amidst a couple of my gaming groups is to allow those characters who start with F&D careers to gain a one-time increase to Force Rating for the first Force-sensitive universal specialization (Force Exile from EotE, Force Emergent from AoR, Padawan Survivor from Dawn of Rebellion). This allows characters to quickly hit Force Rating 2 for about 20XP* while permitting everyone to have access to a spec that will let them reach Force Rating 3.

*Interestingly enough, it's been calculated by various folks on these forums that the XP cost of a F&D career getting Force Rating 1 works out to somewhere around 20XP, given they're losing starting one skill rank (making it harder to double up on starting skill ranks) and also two less beginning career skills.

21 hours ago, rogue_09 said:

For my Force and Destiny group, I give out a second category of XP that can only be spent on Force powers. We only play once every month or two, so I'm not worried about liberally dishing out XP. They usually get 20-25 XP with an additional 10 "Force" XP on top. They can use their "standard" XP for Force powers if they so choose, but the Force XP is for powers only.

This sounds a lot like the World of Darkness system for Scion (as best as I can recall that system from 20 years ago). You had a separate pool of XP you could earn for doing epic stuff, and it was only spendable on your god powers.....or am I thinking of Exalted? Meh, one of those systems had a similar setup, and it worked well.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

To add to the list of potential options, another notion that's been floated amidst a couple of my gaming groups is to allow those characters who start with F&D careers to gain a one-time increase to Force Rating for the first Force-sensitive universal specialization (Force Exile from EotE, Force Emergent from AoR, Padawan Survivor from Dawn of Rebellion). This allows characters to quickly hit Force Rating 2 for about 20XP* while permitting everyone to have access to a spec that will let them reach Force Rating

Might be easier just to let everyone just have a free Force Rating, regardless of picking up additional universal trees. If the main consensus of the table is "we don't like starting at FR 1, because it's unfun, and makes using the Force underwhelming. And we really don't actually start playing with it until FR 2." *shrugs* Seems an easy solution to me

@KungFuFerret

I'm just putting it out there as an option to consider, though I do agree that it'd be simpler to either just start at FR2 or do the FR1 and the alternate approach to committed Force dice I posited earlier.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

@KungFuFerret

I'm just putting it out there as an option to consider, though I do agree that it'd be simpler to either just start at FR2 or do the FR1 and the alternate approach to committed Force dice I posited earlier.

Oh I know, I'm just always in favor of simplifying stuff, and having it tied to their first universal force spec, that normally wouldn't give an FR anyway, and only benefits those who buy that spec, seems an extra layer of detail that I'd rather not mess with. If the general vote is "we don't really like playing at FR 1, because it doesn't really feel fun to us", I just think it's easier to just start at FR 2 and be done with it.

I know when I've built PC's for friends (basically homebrew pre-genned characters), I usually build them to be FR 2 anyway, to reflect their familiarity with the Force. Just saves time in my book xD