1 Fatigue = 1 Movement Point

1 Movement Point = Drink 1 Potion

Therefore 1 Fatigue = Drink 1 Potion, right?

So here's the funny stuff: My Road to Legend campaign is at 482 Total Conquest and Grey Ker is dominating the game via a monstrous combination of advances.

He's got 12 health, 9 Fatigue, a Ranged trait of 3 Black and 1 Silver and has the following skills: Rapid Fire, Born to the Bow, Marksman and Eagle Eyes. He's equipped with the Elven Robe, the Ring of Protection, the Ghost Armor rune, the Archer's Charm and the Scythe of Reaping. Oh, and he also gains a further +1 Armor from the Crown of the Elder Gods worn by another hero.

So his attacks are like this: 1 Blue, 2 Green, 3 Black and 1 Silver, gaining Sorcery 2, Range + 5, Pierce 3, +1 Range or Damage per Surge, whole attack counts as aimed.

What all this boils down to is that if Grey Ker goes for 2 Attacks in a turn, his sequence of attacks looks like this: Make first regular attack, spend 2 Fatigue for first additional attack, spend 2 Fatigue for second additional attack, spend 2 Fatigue for third additional attack, spend 2 Fatigue for fourth additional attack, spend last Fatigue to drink a Fatigue Potion, make second regular attack, spend 2 Fatigue for fifth additional attack, spend 2 Fatigue for sixth additional attack, spend 2 Fatigue for seventh additional attack, spend 2 Fatigue for eighth additional attack.

That's 10 attacks of the kind mentioned above in a single turn! And since another hero has the Leader skill (the one where he can place orders on other heroes), he can even have a Rest order on top of that, making him capable of firing machine gun salvos for as long as he has Fatigue potions...

There isn't much that can take that kind of punishment.

Yep. This has been brought up before by other people. It can be used with pretty much any ranged hero.

Just wait till you get the Guantlets of Power on him.

As an Overlord, try to keep your monsters spread out behind obstacles. Also, save your Crushing Blocks to block off line of sight alleys. If you can break things up to where he can't see very many monsters from one place, his super action is wasted.

Also use your Spiked Pits to force him to spend fatigue climbing out.

The game is broken at Gold level anyway, so I don't see that it makes that much difference in the end.

Have you got access to Treachery? If yes, Crushing Blow every single item he owns. Put 2 in the deck if you can. Do it as quick as you can, when he's got nothing left, do the same to the other heroes and then... you can all discuss how you want to play it. You may need to start the campaign again and discuss limits on this combination that you're all happy with.

Rapid Fire + Fatigue upgrades + Gauntlets of Power + Master Archer + Aimed attacks (from the skill or from the treasure) make for a devastating combo (I was going to call it 'broken' but don't want to open up that particular debate again). Whether you decide to nerf it in some way is down to your group but you might want to check the forum for the various opinions on this matter.

Hope it works out.

Just remember that you can only drink 1 potion per turn. Stun, Daze, web, crushing blow to slow him down and reduce him to hiding from your traps. If you have ice or frost, use that to destroy, armor and weapons also

To be honest i think you and the other players need to think about why your playing, and talk to each other. If your playing the game to have a good time with your mates, and you are no longer doing so because of the players using full advantage of a mechanic you need to see how you can adjust it. Same for the overlord if they're putting two dark charms and animate weapons and a couple of ambushes in each dungeoun the players will also loose interest. I like to think of the rules as there to help everyone enjoy a fair game if that is no longer the case then maybe you need to adjust them. I acknowedlge that descent is a bit of a see saw sometimes the players will be doing better and sometime the OL will but if there appears to be no fair way to address the problem with the mechanics you should look to adjust it.

We've just started our second campaign but in our first campaign we didn't get very many of the fatigue upgrades and our best Ranged items and skills were spread over two people, nevertheless we did decide that rapid fire could only be used up to the starting value of your fatigue per turn, but in your campaign that would still be a devastating 6 attacks. So when Rapid fire was pulled from the pack for our second campaign it was not greeted with much joy by our overlord. It was agreed that the simple answer would be for the player to not buy fatigue upgrades which would still give her 4 attacks while battling which is not to be sniffed at. We know that if we start buying fatigue upgrades and it overpowers the game then that character will be hit with eveything the overlord can muster.

If the players wont listen then hit him with everything you've got, Crushing Blow the armour then make him aim his only attacks at him with dark charm a couple of times use ambush cards on that persons turm to stop then doing things. turn him into a monkey. and of course there are the pits and crushing blocks mentioned earlier.

Actually, with Rapid Fire, the act of drinking a potion would end that attack chain. If the hero is battling, they can attack, use up what fatique they have with Rapid Fire (all but 1 that is), spend the fatigue to drink the potion, and make the second attack.

I believe Kevin went over this on the other forums but I can't remember where- just that using fatigue for something other than continuing the action, ends that action. It was a specific response to the rapid fire/gauntlets issue.

I'll see if I can find it. It certainly helps with this issue without nerfing it much at all.

WooT! Found it before the "edit" ran away. From the Sticky of Answered Questions:

Rapid Shot
The Hero must immediately spend fatigue to gain another attack using Rapid shot, but must the attack be immediately used, or can a Hero move and then use the attack?"

It must be immediately used .

Oboewan said:

That's what actually happened in the given example. Battle action, attack, spend all but 1 fatigue using rapid fire, spend last fatigue to drink a potion, take 2nd attack of battle action, then initiate a 2nd Rapid Fire chain using replenished fatigue. That's entirely legal by RAW.

I think this will help.

The Issue -->

Potentially endless attacks from heroes using Rapid Fire.

Answer -->

Rapid Fire can only be used after an Attack Action. That is a Battle (2 Attack Actions) or an Advance (1 Attack Action)

Thus, the most Rapid Fire can be used is twice, once after the 2 Attack Actions when a Battle is declared.

Note: Rapid Fire is NOT an Attack Action, it is the skill to get off another rapid shot in a limited time frame.

Again, no movement, fatigue spending or otherwise, can be done between the Attack Action and using Rapid Fire to get off another rapid shot.

Cheers,

Derfele.

ps: sorry about the blank posts, I cut & paste in from word & it didn't work. Only then I saw the "Edit" option....

I think this will help:

(this was my previous post, it just didn't show up for some reason...)

The Question -->
The Hero must immediately spend fatigue to gain another attack using Rapid shot, but must the attack be immediately used, or can a Hero move and then use the attack?"

Answer -->
It must be immediately used, ie: straight after the first Attack Action.

Thus: it can only be used when an Attack Action is declared.

The most it can be used is twice, when declaring a Battle --> ie: once after each attack action. Rapid Fire is NOT an Attack Action. It is a skill which allows you to Attack again, not take another "Attack Action".

Again, no movement (fatigue spending or otherwise) may be used between the Attack Action & using Rapid Fire to get another "rapid shot" in.

Cheers,

Derfele.

I think this will help:

The Question -->
The Hero must immediately spend fatigue to gain another attack using Rapid shot, but must the attack be immediately used, or can a Hero move and then use the attack?"

Answer -->
It must be immediately used, ie: straight after the first Attack Action.

Thus: it can only be used when an Attack Action is declared.

The most it can be used is twice, when declaring a Battle --> ie: once after each attack action. Rapid Fire is NOT an Attack action. It is a skill that allows the hero to fire again or “attack again”, not have another Attack Action. Again, no movement (fatigue spending or otherwise) may be used between the Attack Action & using Rapid Fire to get another "rapid shot" in.

Cheers,

Derfele.

Antistone said:

Wasn't debating the OP's example. Just providing a clarification for some who seem to be using RF indefinitely

Minti-me said:

That is exactly what my wife likes to do as overlord, and it doesn't make the hero's lose interest. On the contrary, knowing that she potentially has animate weapons, some dark charms, possibly a spell of frost and crushing blows lights a fire under our hero butts and we make for the third level exit like the devil himself is chasing us.

Nothing says joy like finding out that we just exited the third dungeon level with three cards left before the overlord cycles and those three cards include an animate weapons and a crushing blow.

I personnally don't think the OL or the hero's need nerfed. Rapid fire is just a range characters version of a blast attack, and animate weapons/crushing blow are some of the more dire threats the hero's face which makes being a hero so exciting.

Derfele Carne said:

I'm confused. Is this your take on how Rapid Fire works or a house rule you have come up with? If this is how you think the skill works than 2 things come to mind:

1) Your explanation means that you could never use Rapid Fire after a Guard action, and you clearly can since the skill card says after making a Ranged attack which can be the result of a Guard action. Guards are defined as interrupt attacks and therefore qualify as Attack actions. Base rules of the game.

2) How do you reconcile this interpretation of the rules (if its not a house rule) with the fact that the skill card itself SAYS you can use it multiple times if you pay the cost?

While I agree with the fact that moving, spending fatigue for movement points or drinking potions should not be allowed since you are supposed to use the attack immediately (which I have always taken to mean you keep rolling attacks until you run out of fatigue), the card's text clearly says you can use it multiple times.

Thanks Big Remy for the question, a good one.

Yes, it is my interpretation of the rules of the game (ie: not a house rule).

Before you start to think I am crazy, a little background on how I work out a ruleset. I use "work-out" as this is where I am up to currently, of course i am open to changing my ideas when better information is available.

Here are some guidelines I find very helpful when working out a ruleset on tricky issues:

(a) On wording - is it Technical wording, or more a matter of semantics? That is, has a similar word been used to mean the same thing, or is a word used at times to mean two different things?

(b) Remember to interpret the Ruleset - no rule exists in isolation, they interact. Are there similar rules to compare with that will shed light on the current situation?

© Interpret in relation to the "heart" or the "spirit" of the game. Sometimes this combined with (b) can help flesh-out difficult scenarios.

(d) Life experience -- this one can be a bit flimsy here, after all this is a fantasy world, so just use this as a "light pointer" if useful.

Ok, looking at your questions in that line of thought:

Big Remy said:

No problem here, Guard is an interupt Attack and thus you could spend the fatigue to make a Rapid Fire.

Note, I call the Rapid Fire exactly that, a Rapid Fire, not another Attack Action. See (a) above.

Big Remy said:

I take multiple times to mean multiple times per hero turn, because it says "this turn". That is, a hero who Battles has 2 Attack Actions & if they use Rapid Fire on each Attack Action, then they have used it 2 times in their turn -multiple times. Moreover, if a hero also has Knight as a skill, they then have 3 Attack Actions this turn, if they choose to use Rapid Fire after each Attack Action, then they have used Rapid Fire 3 times - again multiple times.

Here is where (b) & © come into their own to help with this.

Let's look at similar skills and how they work across the range...

-- Knight -- Action is Battle: spend 2 fatigue to get 1/2 movement + 3 Attacks (can't be used multiple times)

-- Able Warrior -- Action is Advance: spend 2 fatigue to make 2 Attacks (can't be used multiple times)

-- Quick Casting -- After making a Magic Attack, spend 2 fatigue to make 1 additional Attack (Exhaust this card - can't be used multiple times)

Thus with these examples, I think you can discover the "heart or spirit" of the ruleset.

It is to give each hero class that extra boost when needed, not to be outlandish in it's application. Though, a range hero with Knight & Rapid Fire still packs an extraordinary punch (3 Attack Actions thus Rapid Fire could be used 3 times = 6 possible hits for damage). The balance being that a melee character misses out on Knight...

It does beg the question....how come the range hero doesn't have to exhaust his skill like the poor magic dude? The apparent reason from my perspective is that magic attacks generally do more damage than range attacks. Ie: even at beginning weapons magic has white dice over blue dice and generally more options for green. Range has more yellow dice options. Thus the range hero recieves a little extra in his skill of rapid fire.

Finally on (d) - Life Experience, I am an archer. I use "Rapid Fire" when in the field. I hold a second arrow with my little finger on my bow hand. That way after I have loosed my first arrow, I can rapidly draw the second arrow into position. Much quicker than going for the quiver. Tried holding 2 arrows, but it just doesn't work well... Ok, this isn't the basis for my position, just an interesting insight...

Hope that helps you see my process in working out the Ruleset.

Again, it is where I am up to. If better information & wisdom present themselves, I am happy to change my position.

Cheers,

Derfele.

Great response, thanks for shedding some light on it for me.

Your reasoning makes perfect sense to me. I'll probably still continue to use Rapid Fire in what I think is the correct way, but I also really can't argue against your line of thought there.

I don't have the cards in front of me, but the only thing that comes to mind is that Rapid Fire is the exception to those other skills you mentioned because it says "multiple times". Nonetheless, that is a very interesting angle on that Skill.

Thanks Big Remey.

I'm glad my explanation can be understood.

As for the multiple times issue, I see it as opposed to "exhaust after use" as in Quick Casting.

Thus it can be used with Knight 3 times for the 3 Attack Actions (6 possible hits), then if any other hero in the party has Leadership, they could place a Guard order on this ranged hero, allowing another Rapid Fire during an interrupt Attack (a further 2 possible hits). I think that qualifies as multiple times as opposed to "exhaust after using".

Cheers,

Derfele

What about Cleaving? Cleaving is very similar to Rapid Fire, only with a lower cost and more restrictive conditions. By leaving Cleaving out of the discussion, you've left out the only skill that approximates Rapid Fire's theoretically unlimited use. Also, you're leaving out the only skill that supports using Rapid Fire an unlimited number of times, since Cleaving has two limiting conditions as opposed to Rapid Fire's 0, and is less expensive as a result.

I think there's 2 key phrases that define how rapid fire should be handled:

"additional attack"
Does this mean additional Ranged attack, following normal attack rules? Or is it a special class of attack that somehow does not qualify as a Ranged attack?

"multiple times"
Does this mean "once after each Ranged attack, no matter how may ranged attacks you do" or "multiple times per each Ranged attack"?

I'm finding it hard to think that the attacks granted by Rapid Fire and Cleaving are not themselves valid targets for those skills. I'm also pretty sure that "multiple times" is just in reference to the ability to use Rapid Fire each time you make a Ranged Attack. Rapid Fire is an original Descent skill, back when Born to the Bow and the Gauntlets of Power didn't exist (Master Archer did, though). Also, original Descent did not let you choose your own skills, and had only 1 way to increase fatigue, so Rapid Fire was often a perfectly balanced card since it allowed Ranged attackers to have similar damage outputs to Magic (with their AOE) and Melee (with their much higher chance of multiple attacks per turn and far greater average damage). With the expansions, Rapid Fire is no longer balanced when compared to the other attack-granting skills.

Since original Descent had a maximum of 7 fatigue for any one character, Rapid Fire could, at most, be used 6 times per turn. Given that this was playtested and considered balanced, I would propose that Rapid Fire be modded in the following way:

Place 6 ammo counters on the Rapid Fire card. Each time you use Rapid Fire, discard an ammo counter. When the last ammo counter is removed from Rapid Fire, exhaust the card; it is now unusable until refreshed at the start of your turn. At the start of your turn, during the Refresh Cards step, replace all discarded ammo counters.

Thundercles said:

The base game contained Endurance and Leadership (with no fatigue cost). I don't think that balance was considered a major concern.

Thanks Thundercles for your input. Here are some extra thoughts...

Thundercles said:

While Cleaving has the ability to be used multiple times, I think its very restrictive nature makes it less useful to compare with Rapid Fire. To cleave you have to kill an enemy plus still be adjacent to another enemy, then kill again... If using 2 tanks leading the party, that further restricts it's use, both for possible position of enemy, plus potential lack of them as the other tank hero needs targets too. Of course there are options where it works a treat such as being surrounded by Kobolds! However, stronger monsters and range monsters limit this further. A range weapon can hit any enemy in line of sight, even more so with Crack Shot and/or Precision which would be quite reasonable skills for a range hero to acquire.

If you want to compare the closest skill to Rapid Fire it would be very reasonable to compare Quick Casting. It would seem to me that Quick Casting is the "mirror image" for the magic user, just as Rapid Fire is for the ranged character (even the same cost in fatigue!). Of course Quick Casting is exhausted after 1 use only, and thus not even able to be used for a Guard action if already exhausted during the heroes turn... Compare the "mirror skill" Rapid Fire, I think the way I have explained its use is also really within the "heart & spirit" of the ruleset.

Thundercles said:

Yes, I define it is a special class of attack, in fact I call it a Rapid Fire Attack in my game to distinguish it from an Attack Action.

Thus it would qualify to be used after each Ranged Attack that occurs from an Attack Action or from a Guard Order (as previously exampled).

ie:

Advance Declared --> 1 Attack Action (2 if using Able Warrior)

Battle Declared --> 2 Attack Actions (3 if using Knight)

Leadership --> a different hero can place a Guard Order on the ranged hero -- 1 Attack Action from the Guard Order if used to interrupt the OverLord

Thus if declaring a Battle, using the Knight Skill and having a Guard Order placed by Leadership, (total 4 possible Attack Actions) --> hence Rapid Fire could be used once per each = 4 Rapid Fire Attacks possible between the start of the heroes turn and the beginning of the heroes next turn.

That is where I am up to in working out the Ruleset.

Again, if better info, wisdom presents itself, I am happy to change my position.

If you are new to reading this thread, I have made a post on the previous page concerning the model I follow in "working out" a Ruleset. You will find it near the bottom of page 1 in this thread.

Cheers,

Derfele.

No, I saw your model, I was just commenting that your model led to different conclusions than you had, if you were looking at the situation without excluding inconvenient data. I guess you're saying that your reasoning model is for working out house rules, not for figuring out how the rules should work as written.

I like "special rapid fire attack actions" as a mod, but I've yet to see compelling evidence that the attacks granted by Cleaving, Quick Casting, and Rapid Fire are anything but normal attacks according to the official rules. I'm hesitant to elaborate because it's not really clear if you're arguing that "special rapid fire attack actions" are how the "spirit of the rules" should have defined things.

@Antistone: Leadership and Endurance, while a good demonstration of the usefulness range of skill cards, don't really factor into the discussion of the balance between Quick Casting, Cleaving, and Rapid Fire. But it's a good point, the original game (and subsequent expansions) cannot really be considered "balanced", although I have confidence that certain aspects were intentionally balanced against each other.

Really, I am trying to go after the "Spirit of the Ruleset", not just trying to "make a house-rule".

I am trying to answer what does the Ruleset genuinely intend here?

Why did I even ask this question about Rapid Fire --> because I just don't see any other skill which has a such an "unlimited" (ie: as long as you have fatigue, nothing stops you, not even a miss result) use to it.

Cleaving is very different, it has it's own condition for starting, condition for continuing & limited conditions as to when it is even possible to be used. It is quite limited, as I described before -- plus even just a miss (X) roll stops it. Really it is a step different as far as similar skills go.

Consider Grey Ker (or Silhouette) with Rapid Fire, Skilled, 3x Fatigue upgrades-ie gold level RtL (that's 5+2+2+2+2 total = 13 Fatigue) and 1 bottle of vitality... In one Battle Action he can do his first ranged attack, then Rapid Fire 6 times (12 fatigue), spend the remaining fatigue to drink the vitality potion, do his second attack, then Rapid Fire a further 6 times. Thus a total of 14 attacks - Rapid Fire counting for 12 of them.

Look at poor old Landrec - with the same set ie: Skilled, Quick Casting and 3x Fatigue upgrades: In one Battle Action he can do his first magic attack, then Quick Cast for another magic attack (card is now exhausted for his entire turn), do his second attack. Thus a total of 3 attacks...

14 attacks vs 3 attacks ? 11 attacks more? With a "mirrored skill?" I just don't see how this is what the spirit of the Ruleset is about or intends. Yes, with semantics on the wording you could interpret it any way you like... This is why I look at the heart of the Ruleset to try to gain better clarity, not just trying to drum up a house-rule.

If it is Rapid Fire is intended to be "unlimited", it provokes some interesting follow-up questions:

Why aren't Knight and Able Warrior able to be repeated?

Why is Quick Casting - essentially a "mirror skill" for the magic user so strictly limited - just 1 go per turn?

Honestly, if Quick Casting, Knight and Able Warrior were all used the same way -- "unlimited" (ie: as long as you have fatigue, nothing stops you, not even a miss result) then there would be no question with Rapid Fire.

Really - for me, even if just Quick Casting could have mulitiple goes per turn, I wouldn't have even looked closely at Rapid Fire "seeming unlimited".

Cheers,

Derfele.

Ok, I see what you mean. There are 2 problems with trying to apply the "spirit of the rules": first, it's inherently subjective, and second, such an argument assumes that it is somehow possible to divine the author's intent from how they wrote the rules, which can often be at odds with what the author actually meant.

In this case, the spirit of the rules you speak of is a spirit that had no idea RtL was going to come along and give people fatigue upgrades. This concept of "Unlimited Rapid Fire" was completely intentional in the original descent game, because it wasn't actually unlimited at all. LIke I said, the most fatigue any character could hope to have in the original game was 7, leading to 6 rapid fire shots per turn, in the best of cases. If you were supremely lucky, you could have Grey Ker with 7 Fatigue, Rapid Fire, and Vampiric Blood, and assuming you had some kind of godly Gold ranged weapon, you could theoretically crank out 12 rapid fire shots per turn assuming you manage to kill everything in one shot. Conversely, silver item Magic attacks could take out entire 9x9 rooms full of monsters (12 or more monsters in one shot! Dead, not just attacked: dead) without much effort, and melee attackers needed little better than copper weapons to OHKO every spawnable monster in the game (try killing each monster you shoot with a 14-hit Rapid Fire attack holding a copper Ranged weapon). That "poor old Landrec" with Skilled, Quick Casting, and 3x fatigue could kill every monsters in a room in 1 aimed shot, without spending much fatigue at all and only using Quick Casting to mop up: it would probably take Grey "Machine Gun" Ker 2 shots or more per monster to achieve the same results. Underneath the fantasy trappings of Descent is a rules spirit spawned from first-person shooter deathmatches, where avoiding damage is really the only way to survive, so I would suggest avoiding appealing to it when attempting to justify a ruling.

Furthermore, Knight and Able Warrior have nothing to do with Rapid Fire. Knight, Able Warrior, Unmovable, and Leadership are all similar skills, and comparing them to Rapid Fire makes no sense. Knight and Able Warrior are played at the start of a turn and change the properties of a Declared Action: Rapid Fire, Cleaving, and Quick Casting are played in reponse to a player's action and give players a way to greatly enhance a turn's kill output. I can answer your questions pretty easily:
Derfele Carne said:

-Knight and Able Warrior cannot be cast repeatedly because the attacks they grant have no limits on when they have to be used. Quick Casting, Cleaving, and Rapid Fire all force you to use the granted attack immediately.
-Quick Casting is not repeatable because Magic attacks can hit several figures at once: for every Ranged attack that hits 1 figure, a Magic character with a Blast rune can often hit 4 or more figures, depending on the OL's formation.

I believe others have already said this, but some parts of the original Descent game just don't translate well to Road to Legend, and Rapid Fire is definitely one of them. In the original game, Ranged characters had limited fatigue, low chance of getting good items, and a big dependance on damage boosting skills and items due to their weak dice. Road to Legend allows Ranged characters to correct these shortcomings and ends up unbalancing Ranged characters' strengths as a result. Originally, it wasn't a problem if a Ranged character could hit anything they could see, because it took them more hits to kill any monster than any other hero; in Road to Legend, this enormous range makes high Fatigue, Rapid Firing, dice enhanced characters gods of the battlefield, able to kill anything they can see.

I stand by my statement that Rapid Fire's recursiveness is the intent of the rules. I keep comparing Rapid Fire to Cleaving because Cleaving is triggered by a killing blow with a Melee attack: if that attack kills another monster, you can trigger Cleaving again. This situation is comparable to Rapid Fire triggering whenever a Ranged attack is made, since the Rapid Fire attack itself is also Ranged and therefore triggers Rapid Fire again. Melee characters actually have little problem killing most monsters in one blow and dungeons in Descent are often cramped so triggering Cleaving several times per turn is not unheard of, expecially when facing hordes of Kobolds. On the other hand, I don't believe Rapid Fire (or even Cleaving, really) is balanced in Road to Legend, and I think the ruling you've made is a very good modification of the original rules, one that should probably be made official. However, it's not official, and there's just not enough evidence to make it seem like it the intent of the skill was as you describe.

Still, I really like your ruling as a modification for Road to Legend, and I believe I might adopt it in my games. I wish Kevin would weigh in on the balance of skills and items at the Gold level of the Campaign, or possibly even just ask FFG to get some of the playtesters together to identify and iron out the balance issues in the game. In lieu of that, it's up to us to work things out in discussions like these. For my part, I'll try contributing something besides long treatises full of Rules Lawyering.

Joram said:

What's that Joram??

I haven't been keeping up with the message boards as much since the website changed (no bloody subscribe facility), but since when did this change of heart happen?