On 11/3/2018 at 8:44 AM, Karneck said:

I've used dust fields with 2 ship to my benefit and disaster, usually to my benefit to help my QF.

Suggestions on how best to use them...?

Not to turn this into a rule thread, but what about the ship overlapping the dust field if it's Los would be drawn though the dust field but it is not because of it overlapping it can it not attack it seems to get very fiddly so is the ruling something like if a ship is overlapping an obstacle and Los is not drawn though a visable portion of the obstacle the obstacle has no effect on the attack. If the ship is not overlapping the obstacle Los would be traced through treat all other ships overlapping that obstacle as if they were not in play when determining the effects of obstacles on attacks?

9 minutes ago, xero989 said:

Not to turn this into a rule thread, but what about the ship overlapping the dust field if it's Los would be drawn though the dust field but it is not because of it overlapping it can it not attack it seems to get very fiddly so is the ruling something like if a ship is overlapping an obstacle and Los is not drawn though a visable portion of the obstacle the obstacle has no effect on the attack. If the ship is not overlapping the obstacle Los would be traced through treat all other ships overlapping that obstacle as if they were not in play when determining the effects of obstacles on attacks?

Edit: actually i see what your asking now and thats a good question

17 minutes ago, xero989 said:

Not to turn this into a rule thread, but what about the ship overlapping the dust field if it's Los would be drawn though the dust field but it is not because of it overlapping it can it not attack it seems to get very fiddly so is the ruling something like if a ship is overlapping an obstacle and Los is not drawn though a visable portion of the obstacle the obstacle has no effect on the attack. If the ship is not overlapping the obstacle Los would be traced through treat all other ships overlapping that obstacle as if they were not in play when determining the effects of obstacles on attacks?

After some discussion on Discord Ian Cross says:

Dust will continue to block shots, even if LoS has to be traced through a ship overlapping said dust.

16 minutes ago, xero989 said:

.... [Treat all ships, tokens, dials, etc etc] as if they were not in play when determining the effects of obstacles on attacks

I honestly can't understand what you are asking.... but this is accurate. You can ignore all the rest of everything I guess?

Bold red is mine.

While a ship is overlapping an obstacle and the attacking
hull zone’s traced line of sight does not pass over a visible
portion of that obstacle, or another obstacle or ship, is that
attack obstructed?
A: No.

Hmm

Under the most technically correct reading it would be possible the following scenario: A ship is overlapping an obstacle another ship is shooting through. The LOS doesn't go through the overlapping ship but it does through a squadron overlapping the same obstacle: the attack wouldn't be obstructed, as 1. A ship is overlapping an obstacle and 2. The LOS doesn't pass over a visible portion of that obstacle. LOL

But whenever the ship stop overlapping that obstacle the same shot get obstructed, hahahaha

Dust does not obstruct ship attacks...

We're not talking about other obstacles, but specifically dust.

@Green Knight I realize the portion I quoted could have been misunderstood as it is unclear on that, so I apologize.

43 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

I honestly can't understand what you are asking.... but this is accurate. You can ignore all the rest of everything I guess?

Bold red is mine.

I'm asking if a ship is overlapping the dust field and that ship that is overlapping the dust field wants to attack los is not drawn though a visable part of the dust field but if we pretend the ship base was not there the yellow dot would be behind the dust field so that ship can't attack. You would also have to apply this to ships overlapping other obstacles too, and as we know if you are covering the station with your base and Los is not drawn though a visable portion of that station your attack is not obstructed, so I am saying does that same reasoning apply to applying the effects of other obstacles like dust fields since you the ship are covering it? I completely agree that other ships don't effect your ability shoot though the dust field as you treat them as not being in play, but do we also apply that to you the activating ship do we have to drill a hole where the yellow dot is as see if it is behind the dust field you are overlapping? If so that makes the game really fiddly and as the yellow dot is so small create needless arguments so I think the ruling should be "when determining the effects of obstacles on line of sight treat all other ships and/or squadrons as out of play" that way you as the ship overlapping the dust field can still make the attack, but the ship behind you can't. Sorry for the wall of text hopefully that was more clear it would probably be easier to show you what I am asking if I had illustrations.

dust is not a normal obstacle though, that is what we are establishing.

And in this case, I am trying - poorly - to interpret a rules decision based on a lot of circuitous evidence. This is definitely something that would be a GREAT candidate for a detailed FAQ.

Again, dust is different guys.

They do NOT obstruct ship attacks.

If read literally the FAQ entry only relates to obstruction, so is NOT relevant to dust.

43 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Dust does not obstruct ship attacks...

15 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Again, dust is different guys.

They do NOT obstruct ship attacks.

That's not technically correct:

Attacks that draw line of sight through an obstacle token
are obstructed.

?

I think Dras already pointed out that.

15 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

If read literally the FAQ entry only relates to obstruction, so is NOT relevant to dust.

I agree with you though. The FAQ entry only cover obstruction so it is not strictly applicable to the "other" effect of dust fields. However there's some kind of logic behind that read.

Edit: it is also true that I don't have my CC rulebook here so I cannot check if it says something like dust fields don't obstruct attack but they do this instead.

The dust field is a new type of obstacle coming with the Corellian Conflict Campaign Expansion. It prevents ships from performing any attacks that would trace line of sight across the token. Squadrons can attack through a dust field, but their attacks are obstructed.

6 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

The dust field is a new type of obstacle coming with the Corellian Conflict Campaign Expansion. It prevents ships from performing any attacks that would trace line of sight across the token. Squadrons can attack through a dust field, but their attacks are obstructed.

Then they are obstacles and fall within that section in the RRG, so they also obstruct attack if you ever manage to perform one through them. As obstruction is a general rule for obstacles and not an specific effect of some of them. Preventing the attack is the specific rule for dust fields and may prevent for ever resolving the obstruction rule but they are no technically incompatible.

6 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Then they are obstacles and fall within that section in the RRG, so they also obstruct attack if you ever manage to perform one through them. As obstruction is a general rule for obstacles and not an specific effect of some of them. Preventing the attack is the specific rule for dust fields and may prevent for ever resolving the obstruction rule but they are no technically incompatible. 

No, they do not obstruct, as obstruction is a clearly defined property of all other obstacles (and ships), giving -1 attack die.

Dust blocks ship shots, but obstruct squadron shots.

This was not, however, the question at hand.

The question was:

If u overlap the dust with a ship, so that they dust cannot be seen, can a ship now shoot (obstructed mind you) "through" the "invisible" dust.

Worlds judge Ian Cross then declared that no, the ship overlapping the dust does NOT negate the effects of the dust (i.e. blocking the shot).

3 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

No, they do not obstruct, as obstruction is a clearly defined property of all other obstacles (and ships), giving -1 attack die.

Dust blocks ship shots, but obstruct squadron shots.

This was not, however, the question at hand.

The question was:

If u overlap the dust with a ship, so that they dust cannot be seen, can a ship now shoot (obstructed mind you) "through" the "invisible" dust.

Worlds judge Ian Cross then declared that no, the ship overlapping the dust does NOT negate the effects of the dust (i.e. blocking the shot).

When a ship or squadron overlaps an obstacle after
executing a maneuver, it resolves an effect that depends on
the type of obstacle it overlapped:
• Asteroid Field: The ship is dealt one faceup damage
card. Squadrons are unaffected.
• Debris Field: The ship suffers two damage on any one
hull zone. Squadrons are unaffected.
• Station: The ship can discard one of its faceup or
facedown damage cards. The squadron can recover one
hull point.
• A ship or squadron overlaps an obstacle if part of
its base is on top of the obstacle token after moving
(excluding activation sliders). Ships and squadrons can
move through obstacles without issue.
• If a ship overlaps more than one obstacle, it resolves the
effects of each obstacle in any order.
• Attacks that draw line of sight through an obstacle token
are obstructed.

However:

I agree with you about the current topic as I already said. I do it even more knowing that ruling form a Judge. I do despite the fact I would rule it the other way which would be more logic due to the given rules.

We will just have to wait for an faq I do agree that you can't use a ship on the dust field to let your other ships shoot thorough the dust field, but I think the ship on the dust field should be able to shoot if Los is not visbly drawn though the dust field, and that is how I will play unless the TO says otherwise, or it gets FAQ

6 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

No, they do not obstruct, as obstruction is a clearly defined property of all other obstacles (and ships), giving -1 attack die.

Dust blocks ship shots, but obstruct squadron shots.

This was not, however, the question at hand.

The question was:

If u overlap the dust with a ship, so that they dust cannot be seen, can a ship now shoot (obstructed mind you) "through" the "invisible" dust.

Worlds judge Ian Cross then declared that no, the ship overlapping the dust does NOT negate the effects of the dust (i.e. blocking the shot).

I agree with this my question is can the ship that is overlapping the dust shoot if Los is not traced though a visable part of the dust field.

2 minutes ago, xero989 said:

I agree with this my question is can the ship that is overlapping the dust shoot if Los is not traced though a visable part of the dust field.

I guess his response must be no as the FAQ only adress obstruction, not dust's effect.

4 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I guess his response must be no as the FAQ only adress obstruction, not dust's effect.

That seems like it could be ridiculous. "I'll park my quasar at speed 0 four inches behind this dust cloud. I am now automatically immune to large base attacks from half of the map, as they can't fit completely between my quasar and the cloud." You could try to measure LoS to determine whether any part of the dust is beneath or in front of the yellow dot (hidden or not,) but that would be a really finicky, unreliable measurement. Whereas if another ship is shooting through the ship on the dust cloud, you can check LoS easily by marking and removing any components obscuring any dust interactions.

7 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

That seems like it could be ridiculous. "I'll park my quasar at speed 0 four inches behind this dust cloud. I am now automatically immune to large base attacks from half of the map, as they can't fit completely between my quasar and the cloud." You could try to measure LoS to determine whether any part of the dust is beneath or in front of the yellow dot (hidden or not,) but that would be a really finicky, unreliable measurement. Whereas if another ship is shooting through the ship on the dust cloud, you can check LoS easily by marking and removing any components obscuring any dust interactions.

I could be wrong due to different metric system but are not 4 inches like 10 cm, that's a lot of margin to shoot at that Quasar.

But yes a ship parked on the dust field would be untouchable somehow as long as we are not talking about obstruction. Is it logic? **** no!

4 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

You could try to measure LoS to determine whether any part of the dust is beneath or in front of the yellow dot (hidden or not,) but that would be a really finicky, unreliable measurement. Whereas if another ship is shooting through the ship on the dust cloud, you can check LoS easily by marking and removing any components obscuring any dust interactions.

This is my thinking exactly.

13 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I could be wrong due to different metric system but are not 4 inches like 10 cm, that's a lot of margin to shoot at that Quasar.

But yes a ship parked on the dust field would be untouchable somehow as long as we are not talking about obstruction. Is it logic? **** no!

No, you're right on the measurement. To clarify my previous example; the Quasar is parked behind the dust cloud, not touching it. Here's the question.

44 minutes ago, xero989 said:

can the ship that is overlapping the dust shoot if Los is not traced though a visable part of the dust field?

Most of us probably agree that a ship poking its nose through a dust cloud can shoot at targets on the other side. The problem: we can't measure exactly where the dust cloud ends relative to that ship's line of sight. If your ISD is in front of their quasar, but just the rear corner is on a dust cloud, there's no established way to know whether LoS is obstructed beneath the ISD, even if there's clearly nothing between both ships. Hence the 4 inches case, because a large base can't completely jump over the dust cloud. It's an extreme example, but surely you can imagine a much less common sense case than that.

That's why I strongly suspect the answer to xero989's question is "yes."