5 minutes ago, Eoen said:

No, people are born being able to use it (as can be seen in clone wars, The Phantom Menace, and Rebels) Force users who don’t get early training might suppress it in childhood. Also sometimes people awaken to it.

There's also a scene at the very end of TLJ where a small child (who most certainly hasn't had any sort of training) uses the Force to pull a broom to his hand from a few feet away. Back in Legends material (which was for the longest time the undisputed gospel) we had incidences of people using the Force in various ways without any sort of formal training; awful a story as they may have been, the first book of the Jedi Academy trilogy has Luke wandering the galaxy chasing up on people who display "unusual" traits (such as extremely good luck) as potential students for his newly-founded Jedi Praxeum on Yavin 4.

All it really seems training does is inform the student that "Hey, this crazy thing you didn't think was possible? Guess what, it's possible and you can do it if you believe strongly enough!"

In that respect, Rey has a very large running head start on Luke, since as was noted earlier in the thread, she grew up hearing stories of Luke's incredible feats. Plus, going by the TLJ novelization, she got a pretty good look into Kylo's mind during that psychic interrogation scene, which clued her in that the Force could be used to do some pretty incredible stuff. So in that respect, she did have "off camera training" in how to use the Force, which combined with the fighting/survival skills she developed put her on a much better initial footing that Luke, who had a very comfortable home life and didn't learn the Force was a thing that existed until he was legally an adult.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Not in the way Rey uses it. Some people can intuitively use enhance. but that is about it. They dont go around doing influence or sense.

Try telling that to Kyp Durron., Who could use telekinesis and Foresee. Gantoris, who could also use Foresee. That kid in Coruscant Knights III whose name I can't recall, who used telekinesis and a mind trick. The rodian child in Clone Wars, who used telekinesis. Kyle Katarn, who did pretty much everything with no formal training. Anakin, in the scene where Qui-Gon brings him before the Council. Need I list more examples of "untrained" Force users using various Force powers?

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

I have seen them. The only thing I saw was anakin being able to pilot better. We dont see them using influence untrained. We dont see them using lightsabers untrained. We dont see untrained individuals beating trained lightsaber users.

He can see the future untrained, and Luke can deflect blaster bolts untrained. The Force, no matter how you try to redefine it, has never been a training-only thing.

It was a valiant effort to get the topic back on track @Ebak , but I guess some folks just love running round in circles too much.

31 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Not in the way Rey uses it. Some people can intuitively use enhance. but that is about it. They dont go around doing influence or sense.

Go watch the episodes with force wielding infants, they definitely use move and sense (empathy).

19 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Go watch the episodes with force wielding infants, they definitely use move and sense (empathy).

which is why jedi prefer to get to inphants before that is taught out of them.

47 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Try telling that to Kyp Durron., Who could use telekinesis and Foresee. Gantoris, who could also use Foresee. That kid in Coruscant Knights III whose name I can't recall, who used telekinesis and a mind trick. The rodian child in Clone Wars, who used telekinesis. Kyle Katarn, who did pretty much everything with no formal training. Anakin, in the scene where Qui-Gon brings him before the Council. Need I list more examples of "untrained" Force users using various Force powers?

Kyp Duron is legends and legends had a lot of dumb stuff in them.

13 hours ago, Rozial said:

So first, I actually kinda liked The Last Jedi. I'm not here just bashing everything. I like pretty much all Star Wars content. But I have seen a lot of people say that Rey and Luke are the same in their journey to strength. Here is where I feel the differences lay.

First movie Luke is introduced to the Force and a lightsaber but doesn't really use it or even fight Vader.

First movie Rey is introduced to the Force and a lightsaber and wrecks Kylo, who even wounded still had training since he was a child.

Second movie Luke has some training from Jedi Master Yoda and leaves early to fight Vader. He gets destroyed in the fight and loses an arm.

Second movie Rey has some training from Jedi Master Luke and leaves to face Kylo and Snoke. She is able to fight alongside Kylo to destroy a bunch of elite guards and then use the Force in a big show to free the remaining resistance.

Third movie Luke is finishing his training and finally manages to defeat Vader in a direct fight but only by tapping into his anger and nearly succumbing to the dark side.

Third movie.......Not sure yet.

But this is the key difference between the two. Rey was a badass in her first real lightsaber fight. Luke sucked until the last movie.

And, of course the reason why Rey is a badass is because of her much harsher upbringing.

10 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Be that as it may, it's simply not a fair comparison to even make.

Luke grew up having pretty much never heard of the Jedi, with no clue what they were capable of. So when he started trying to grow as a Force user, he had pretty much foundation to build on until he met Yoda. And yet despite this, he still figured out Move and Enhance in his own, regularly using telekinesis, physical augmentation, and blaster bolt deflection during the Star Wars comics set between IV and V.

Rey grew up hearing about the myths and legends of Luke Skywalker and all his amazing abilities. So naturally, as soon as she realizes she has the Force too, she tries do what she's heard of Luke doing in the myths. Let's face it, if you suddenly found out that you could use the Force, the very first thing you would try would probably be telekinesis or a mind trick, too. There's already existing precedent for Force Sensitives in both Legends and Canon to develop these abilities with no formal training. If anything, Jedi training is more about giving the Jedi a moral code to follow when using these abilities, rather than just teaching the powers themselves.

Luke also grew up with a relatively comfortable life, with Ben protecting the Lars homestead. Naturally, he isn't much of a fighter. But put him in a cockpit, and he's one of the best pilots in the galaxy, with "no formal training." Just a bit of practice in a beat-up airspeeder.

Rey grew up relatively independent on Jakku, forced to fight for her survival against scavengers and other dangers of the desert. So while many people bring up Kylo "being trained since childhood," Rey herself has also been taught self preservation since childhood. I'd even argue fighting for your life on a regular basis is an even stronger foundation for combat training than cozy, leisurely ceremonial combat in a temple. And while sure, she grew up using a staff, not a lightsaber, the fundamentals of melee combat carry over from one to the other. Distance, footwork, and timing are universal to all melee weapons. And thanks to the omnidirectional cutting blade of a lightsaber, they're considerably easier to learn than an actual sword, which requires extensive training to deliver strikes with the proper edge alignment.

So yes, while a lot of people are quick to draw comparisons between Luke and Rey, and use that as an argument for why Rey is "overpowered" or "poorly written," it's simply not a valid comparison to make. The two are vastly different characters, with vastly different upbringings, and very different circumstances in their own movies. Rey started as a badass, ignoring the call to adventure, while Luke started as a novice, eager to take up the call to adventure, but unprepared for what it would bring.

Exactly.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

No. The force has always required training. Not just knowing what could be done.

Not entirely true. as others have posted, there are numerous accounts in canon and Legends of Untrained Force users capable of amazing innate uses of the Force.

1 hour ago, Eoen said:

No, people are born being able to use it (as can be seen in clone wars, The Phantom Menace, and Rebels) Force users who don’t get early training might suppress it in childhood. Also sometimes people awaken to it.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Not in the way Rey uses it. Some people can intuitively use enhance. but that is about it. They dont go around doing influence or sense.

Yes, in the way Rey uses it.

58 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

There's also a scene at the very end of TLJ where a small child (who most certainly hasn't had any sort of training) uses the Force to pull a broom to his hand from a few feet away. Back in Legends material (which was for the longest time the undisputed gospel) we had incidences of people using the Force in various ways without any sort of formal training; awful a story as they may have been, the first book of the Jedi Academy trilogy has Luke wandering the galaxy chasing up on people who display "unusual" traits (such as extremely good luck) as potential students for his newly-founded Jedi Praxeum on Yavin 4.

All it really seems training does is inform the student that "Hey, this crazy thing you didn't think was possible? Guess what, it's possible and you can do it if you believe strongly enough!"

In that respect, Rey has a very large running head start on Luke, since as was noted earlier in the thread, she grew up hearing stories of Luke's incredible feats. Plus, going by the TLJ novelization, she got a pretty good look into Kylo's mind during that psychic interrogation scene, which clued her in that the Force could be used to do some pretty incredible stuff. So in that respect, she did have "off camera training" in how to use the Force, which combined with the fighting/survival skills she developed put her on a much better initial footing that Luke, who had a very comfortable home life and didn't learn the Force was a thing that existed until he was legally an adult.

Precisely. Well said.

58 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Try telling that to Kyp Durron., Who could use telekinesis and Foresee. Gantoris, who could also use Foresee. That kid in Coruscant Knights III whose name I can't recall, who used telekinesis and a mind trick. The rodian child in Clone Wars, who used telekinesis. Kyle Katarn, who did pretty much everything with no formal training. Anakin, in the scene where Qui-Gon brings him before the Council. Need I list more examples of "untrained" Force users using various Force powers?

11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

which is why jedi prefer to get to inphants before that is taught out of them.

10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Kyp Duron is legends and legends had a lot of dumb stuff in them.

It also had a lot of great stuff. To further the previous examples, there is also Nomi Sunrider, from Tales of the Jedi, with her natural talent in Battle Meditation, which she was able to use untrained, and used twice on Ambria, once to save her daughter from a pair of Hississ, and another time to save herself and Master Thon from pirates.

I will point out that Luke was able to move his lightsaber with the Force before we even knew it was a thing. Why must there be these rules that some force powers can be inately used as if on instinct and some can't?

The body language between Luke and Rey is very similar in both these scenes. Luke is struggling and reaching for the saber...then suddenly he calmly reaches for it and voila! It jumps into his hand.

Rey trys and fails to influence someone's mind, perhaps hearing legends of the Jedi being able to manipulate minds. When she asks the first time, she is nervous and stressed. The second time, the time it works she speaks softly and calmly.

My interpretation of both instances: The force guiding both in their goals to activate a hidden power within. We've also not see Rey do this since that scene.

That is just my two cents. I think she's fine as a character, just like Luke although I can understand she might not be everyone's cup of tea, even though I don't understand the crys of Mary Sue.

7 minutes ago, Ebak said:

I will point out that Luke was able to move his lightsaber with the Force before we even knew it was a thing. Why must there be these rules that some force powers can be inately used as if on instinct and some can't?

The body language between Luke and Rey is very similar in both these scenes. Luke is struggling and reaching for the saber...then suddenly he calmly reaches for it and voila! It jumps into his hand.

Rey trys and fails to influence someone's mind, perhaps hearing legends of the Jedi being able to manipulate minds. When she asks the first time, she is nervous and stressed. The second time, the time it works she speaks softly and calmly.

My interpretation of both instances: The force guiding both in their goals to activate a hidden power within. We've also not see Rey do this since that scene.

That is just my two cents. I think she's fine as a character, just like Luke although I can understand she might not be everyone's cup of tea, even though I don't understand the crys of Mary Sue.

how do we know luke didnt know? years occured between a new hope and empire.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

how do we know luke didnt know? years occured between a new hope and empire.

That's not the issue that they're trying to point out. The fact is, at least from the movies themselves, Luke's ability to use Telekinesis in the beginning of ESB comes out of nowhere. It is only from the expanded fiction that we get any answers. The same with Rey. We do get answers about how she was able to pick up Influence so easily, and quickly without having been previously trained in it from the novelizations. In both cases, their ability to use the Force in those instances is unexplained by the movies themselves, but is explained by the greater fiction.

11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

how do we know luke didnt know?

Because we know what a double standard is.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

how do we know luke didnt know? years occured between a new hope and empire.

You're now speculating on stuff we haven't seen to validate your argument. Despite there being examples in both canon and legends regarding instances of innate force usage. Asajj Ventress is one that leaps to mind, Anakin having inhuman reflexes and so on.

It's also not like we've seen Force users that need to be trained to do similar abilities. Asajj threw a person as a child through inate force usage. Savage Oppress required training by Dooku before he could lift anything. There are also force users with unique abilities that only a few know such as Battle Meditation, Shatterpoint and so on. It seems the Force works in mysterious ways...

How do we know Rey hasn't received training and has blocked it off mentally? How do we know her parents were strong in the force and had a very skilled affinity for the mind trick? Her story is incomplete.

I fully agree Luke could have learned it between ANH and Empire...but if that's the case why was it so hard for him to pull the sabre or even required more training from Yoda. Show, don't tell. In both films, the rookie force users are shown to be in a situation that is inescapable and both times the force assists them to escape and both times their body language does a full 180 just as they pull off the ability.

The Force is a spiritual thing and there seems to be no end to its power. ****, Kylo introduced the ability to freeze stuff. That's something new! Why must something so spiritual be constrained to set rules of what it can do and can't? Doesn't it take away the mystery and surprise of something new?

At the end of the day, this whole debate is pointless. Your mind is made up and it will not be changed, just as mine is.

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Not in the way Rey uses it. Some people can intuitively use enhance. but that is about it. They dont go around doing influence or sense.

As I see it, the mind trick portion of Influence seems like it should require training/practice, but the side that more subtly augments social skills might manifest untrained.

Also, yeah...why does Rey's use of it need explaining on screen but Luke's doesn't? That is a double standard.

37 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

We do get answers about how she was able to pick up Influence so easily

Cool; I was not aware of that. What was explanation?

6 minutes ago, Vorzakk said:

Cool; I was not aware of that. What was explanation?

When Kylo was trying to invade her mind, she, in turn, could see into his. This, aside from giving her a sense of his insecurities over not living up to Darth Vader (which she explicitly stated in the movie), also have her at least a basic understanding of how to use some Force powers. This is covered in the TLJ novelization.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

When Kylo was trying to invade her mind, she, in turn, could see into his. This, aside from giving her a sense of his insecurities over not living up to Darth Vader (which she explicitly stated in the movie), also have her at least a basic understanding of how to use some Force powers. This is covered in the TLJ novelization.

Which just smacks of justifying Mary Sueness. Which is the problem Lucasfilm has had the entire time with Rey. Every time she does something that doesn't fit with the universe they justify in in a way that makes the complaint worse and makes those who pointed out the issue angrier. It belittles a lot of the story that you need training. If you can just pick stuff up what was the point of Luke Going to Yoda? What was the point of training Jedi from Infancy? The stuff in enhance makes sense that a force user can intuit it and use it instinctively. Other stuff that does not make sense for.

23 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which just smacks of justifying Mary Sueness. Which is the problem Lucasfilm has had the entire time with Rey. Every time she does something that doesn't fit with the universe they justify in in a way that makes the complaint worse and makes those who pointed out the issue angrier. It belittles a lot of the story that you need training. If you can just pick stuff up what was the point of Luke Going to Yoda? What was the point of training Jedi from Infancy? The stuff in enhance makes sense that a force user can intuit it and use it instinctively. Other stuff that does not make sense for.

It’s not “justifying” anything of the sort, no more than the books and comics “justifying why Luke could use Telekenesis in the Wampa cave before he began training with Yoda. The movie shows that when Kylo tapped into Rey’s mind, she was able to read his too. It was a two way connection. This is how she was able to read his thought regarding his insecurities about living up to Vader’s example. It’s not that much of a stretch that she picked up more than just that.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not “justifying” anything of the sort, no more than the books and comics “justifying why Luke could use Telekenesis in the Wampa cave before he began training with Yoda. The movie shows that when Kylo tapped into Rey’s mind, she was able to read his too. It was a two way connection. This is how she was able to read his thought regarding his insecurities about living up to Vader’s example. It’s not that much of a stretch that she picked up more than just that.

except it is justifying. They did something. They got called on it. they gave a explanation that doesnt really fit.

Then by that logic, Luke is a Gary Stu because he was able to pluck a Lightsaber out of the ice with no training, and don't give me any of this "Oh it's been years since ANH..." bull because I can just as easily cite that it smacks of justifying Gary Sueness.

I would also agree with you if she's been using influence left and right...but she's used it a grand total of once.

1 minute ago, Ebak said:

Then by that logic, Luke is a Gary Stu because he was able to pluck a Lightsaber out of the ice with no training, and don't give me any of this "Oh it's been years since ANH..." bull because I can just as easily cite that it smacks of justifying Gary Sueness.

I would also agree with you if she's been using influence left and right...but she's used it a grand total of once.

apparently during the books and comics that came out before Empire came out. so not quite the same.

10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

except it is justifying. They did something. They got called on it. they gave a explanation that doesnt really fit.

It fits perfectly well with what happened in the movie. It’s nothing more than an extrapolation on her reading his thoughts on Vader. Remember, he was trying to prove deep into her mind in order to rip the secrets of Luke’s location from her, not just a surface probe. This opened his mind just as much to Rey. Like I said, a two way connection. This is shown explicitly on screen. The TLJ novelization just extrapolated on that, probably after talking to JJ about it, or going from the TFA script of that scene.

9 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Then by that logic, Luke is a Gary Stu because he was able to pluck a Lightsaber out of the ice with no training, and don't give me any of this "Oh it's been years since ANH..." bull because I can just as easily cite that it smacks of justifying Gary Sueness.

I would also agree with you if she's been using influence left and right...but she's used it a grand total of once.

Exactly. Rey only used Influence once, on a single stormtrooper, and failed twice before she finally succeeded, once she calmed down and focused. Had she been able to do it successfully on her first try, or kept doing it over and over as if it were second nature, you might have an argument. However, the film shows that she struggled to use the ability, and had to try multiple times before success.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

apparently during the books and comics that came out before Empire came out. so not quite the same.

They didn’t come out before ESB, though. They were merely set before the movie in the chronology. They were all published well after ESB was released.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

They didn’t come out before ESB, though. They were merely set before the movie in the chronology. They were all published well after ESB was released.

To be fair, Splinter of the Mind's Eye did come out before ESB was released, and that book had Luke using telekinesis.

I mean, the telekinesis still comes out of nowhere, and it isn't really explained how Luke learned to do that, but it is technically a book that shows Luke use telekinesis before he did it in the movies.